I've got one !

[pitadavespa]

I have always experienced burn in with virtually every piece of new hifi i have ever owned. The sound almost always changed for the better with any harshness dicipates with time. I doubt my brain has been tricked every time but i see why some think like that. Each to their own as they say

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Hi, Paul.

I believe you notice what you describe, but I'd love to see some scientific tests reinforcing and explaining it. I'm not aware of any.

Food for thoughts:
Does your new printer makes better prints after printing 30 photos?
I'm sure you've already burned some music CDs to play on your system. If you burn 30 times the same album with your brand new computer, is the last one any different from the others?

Amateur hifi is very subjective, and hifi business/marketing makes sure it continues that way.

Cheers,
Luis

[pitadavespa]

QUAD always aimed to provide " the closest approach to the original sound", a fine ideal. During my days with the BBC I had the privilege of being able to move from the studio with a full orchestra playing into the sound control room to listen to the mix on studio monitor speakers. The best recording engineers really did get pretty close to the real sound, but perfection eludes us all in such a pursuit.

If you really want to test things may I suggest that you have a night out at a real concert hall, with a real orchestra an then obtain a recording of the same music and listen to it at home. How close does this come to resembling the real thing?

If you enjoyed the real concert then this could be dangerous as you might end up joining the rest of us nutcases in spending vast sums of money and too much time striving to chase the impossible, as QUAD always did.

If you are lucky enough to enjoy heavily processed sound, all compressed into an MP3 file then you might save a lot of cash!

Hi, Peter.

It must have been an incredible experience to work in BBC! I envy you! (in a good way)

I was never a professional musician, but I played the clarinet for 11 years in an orchestra. I know what some instruments sound. And I know what dynamic is.
That's why I can't stand compressed music. I have, maybe, 5 MP3 albuns, but just because I can't find them in better quality anywhere.
And I LOVE a live concert in a good hall!

Cheers,
Luis

edit: I don't like compressed music in terms of compressed dynamics. I listen to a (good) MP3 in less demanding or less proper listening conditions without any problem. But sometimes my brain seems a bit more tired with MP3 than with CD or FLAC.

[pitadavespa]

As has been said in other threads recently, people are free to give their opinions on gear in this forum, it might be positive or negative, and others are free to ignore it if they wish.

I can't comment on Stan's dacs as I've never owned one. The language used in the critique did remind me a lot of what I've thought with Sabre dacs I've owned however. Especially the loudness button comment. I did wonder if sabre had built some form of DSP into their chips as the sound seemed boosted in some way, both in terms of frequency response and soundstage/width. I assume technically minded people would pick it up very quickly with their measuring equipment so I must be wrong (unless it can be done in such a way that doesn't show up). But that's still how they sound to me.

Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

Hi, Lawrence.

Thank you for your comment.
If it sounds different, it measures different.

What bothered me the most was Stan didn't even spend one minute trying to convince me that I should give it a try for a few days, or teaching me how to do the "burn in" thing, or answering my (somehow) technical questions/doubts, or even asking what the rest of the system was, type of music, room, etc., or even figuring out if this unit was not good. He even didn't answer my email regarding the SEG being delivered back to him. He just refunded the money (less the shipping costs) without any word. To me, it just screams "don't make waves, return the SEG you'll get a refund and I'll sell it to someone else". Marketing.

If I'd liked the SEG, I would've write a positive review, as good as I could, about it.
I didn't, so I guess I'm free to right my negative opinion also.

In the end, even having spend €46 in shipping costs, this was a good experience for me, because I reinforced my feelings about what I want and what I don't want/like in my system.

Cheers,
Luis

[AJSki2fly]

Hi, Lawrence.

Thank you for your comment.
If it sounds different, it measures different.

What bothered me the most was Stan didn't even spend one minute trying to convince me that I should give it a try for a few days, or teaching me how to do the "burn in" thing, or answering my (somehow) technical questions/doubts, or even asking what the rest of the system was, type of music, room, etc., or even figuring out if this unit was not good. He even didn't answer my email regarding the SEG being delivered back to him. He just refunded the money (less the shipping costs) without any word. To me, it just screams "don't make waves, return the SEG you'll get a refund and I'll sell it to someone else". Marketing.

If I'd liked the SEG, I would've write a positive review, as good as I could, about it.
I didn't, so I guess I'm free to right my negative opinion also.

In the end, even having spend €46 in shipping costs, this was a good experience for me, because I reinforced my feelings about what I want and what I don't want/like in my system.

Cheers,
Luis

Hi Luis,

Having spoken with Stan in the past re the Caiman Seg, this is my take on what you say.

If I recall correctly Stan has worked in the music industry for many years in areas striving for better sound quality. I had quite an interesting and informative discussion with him about digital music quality, data file encoding/decoding and replay issues, impact of data resolution(bit and sampling rate), this discussion included CD’s. In simple terms there are so many variables in the digital chain from the original recording through manufacture and then onto end user decoding, on god knows what equipment, that exact replication of the original analog is very unlikely.

This may seem like a broad statement but if you think it through it makes sense, it is no different in the analog world you’ve only go to have one element not right and it will affect the sound re-produced.

So if you introduce a new piece of equipment into a chain it may work well or it may not, even if that equipment is being as accurate as it can be in this process, in this case decoding a digital stream to analog. This makes determining why it works well say in my setup well and why not in yours quite a difficult task to say the least.

Stan made it very clear that I should try the Caiman out and if it did not give me the result I liked in my system then then he would refund me with no quibble, which I think is what he has done in your case. So I suspect Stan takes the view, give the customer his/her money back if they don’t like it and let them find a product that works for them, which is fair enough in my view. It also holds up why there are so many DAC’s out there that get reviewed on and reported on as having particular traits in the reproduction of music.

Anyway for what it’s worth that’s my view.

On the Issue of burn in time, or stabilisation of equipment this definitely exists. In certain laboratories and industries electronic equipment is never turned off except to replace it due to failure as doing so means it needs recalibration, having allowed it to get to get to a stable set of operating parameters.

If you think about it electrical components are electrical mechanical devices at a low level. Whether it’s a valve, transistor or a micro circuit they still all have one think in common, electrical current acting and influenced by the physical elements it it is flowing through. Every component is designed to work within a tolerance depending on a variety of criteria, and are interdependent on each other in a circuit, so at some point a circuit will become efficient and stable as it was designed to do. We all know that the more accurate and exacting the tolerances of each component then the more accurate the end result will be. Some components are actually have burn in times specified before they will work within the defined tolerances that the designer will be working to, so burn in time becomes a necessity not a a necessity.

From my experience with several pieces of hifi equipment over many years, amps, speakers and even CD players and a DAC, after period of time performance has definitely improved(and in several cases was advised by the manufacturer).

It would be quite interesting if we could take my CD player and SEG and put in it your system to see how it sounded and also if you heard it in mine.

Just a few thoughts

Cheers

Adrian

[Sherwood]

Hi, Lawrence.

Thank you for your comment.
If it sounds different, it measures different.

What bothered me the most was Stan didn't even spend one minute trying to convince me that I should give it a try for a few days, or teaching me how to do the "burn in" thing, or answering my (somehow) technical questions/doubts, or even asking what the rest of the system was, type of music, room, etc., or even figuring out if this unit was not good. He even didn't answer my email regarding the SEG being delivered back to him. He just refunded the money (less the shipping costs) without any word. To me, it just screams "don't make waves, return the SEG you'll get a refund and I'll sell it to someone else". Marketing.

If I'd liked the SEG, I would've write a positive review, as good as I could, about it.
I didn't, so I guess I'm free to right my negative opinion also.

In the end, even having spend €46 in shipping costs, this was a good experience for me, because I reinforced my feelings about what I want and what I don't want/like in my system.

Cheers,
Luis

Your expectations of a vendor seem to me to be completely unrealistic. Stan offers an unconditional returns option to unhappy purchasers. You have benefitted from this and yet to expect him to devote (his unpaid) time to talk you out of returning the unit. Do you think that if you had bought a DAC from a big international company that they would behave any differently. I doubt if Stan makes much from each unit he sells and certainly not from the upgrades he offers which seem to me to be priced on a parts only basis.

You were unhappy with the unit which is fine: if you didn't like it that is your personal choice, though by your own admission you spent very little time listening to the unit. I am guessing that you didn't spend any time experimenting with the different sound profiles. You seem to be suggesting that there is a conspiracy of silence regarding reviews of the SEG. On what evidence do you make this claim and do you have any sense of how commercially damaging this might be to a small business.

[pitadavespa]

Hi Luis,

Having spoken with Stan in the past re the Caiman Seg, this is my take on what you say.

If I recall correctly Stan has worked in the music industry for many years in areas striving for better sound quality. I had quite an interesting and informative discussion with him about digital music quality, data file encoding/decoding and replay issues, impact of data resolution(bit and sampling rate), this discussion included CD’s. In simple terms there are so many variables in the digital chain from the original recording through manufacture and then onto end user decoding, on god knows what equipment, that exact replication of the original analog is very unlikely.

This may seem like a broad statement but if you think it through it makes sense, it is no different in the analog world you’ve only go to have one element not right and it will affect the sound re-produced.

So if you introduce a new piece of equipment into a chain it may work well or it may not, even if that equipment is being as accurate as it can be in this process, in this case decoding a digital stream to analog. This makes determining why it works well say in my setup well and why not in yours quite a difficult task to say the least.

Stan made it very clear that I should try the Caiman out and if it did not give me the result I liked in my system then then he would refund me with no quibble, which I think is what he has done in your case. So I suspect Stan takes the view, give the customer his/her money back if they don’t like it and let them find a product that works for them, which is fair enough in my view. It also holds up why there are so many DAC’s out there that get reviewed on and reported on as having particular traits in the reproduction of music.

Anyway for what it’s worth that’s my view.

On the Issue of burn in time, or stabilisation of equipment this definitely exists. In certain laboratories and industries electronic equipment is never turned off except to replace it due to failure as doing so means it needs recalibration, having allowed it to get to get to a stable set of operating parameters.

If you think about it electrical components are electrical mechanical devices at a low level. Whether it’s a valve, transistor or a micro circuit they still all have one think in common, electrical current acting and influenced by the physical elements it it is flowing through. Every component is designed to work within a tolerance depending on a variety of criteria, and are interdependent on each other in a circuit, so at some point a circuit will become efficient and stable as it was designed to do. We all know that the more accurate and exacting the tolerances of each component then the more accurate the end result will be. Some components are actually have burn in times specified before they will work within the defined tolerances that the designer will be working to, so burn in time becomes a necessity not a a necessity.

From my experience with several pieces of hifi equipment over many years, amps, speakers and even CD players and a DAC, after period of time performance has definitely improved(and in several cases was advised by the manufacturer).

It would be quite interesting if we could take my CD player and SEG and put in it your system to see how it sounded and also if you heard it in mine.

Just a few thoughts

Cheers

Adrian

Hi, Adrian.

Obviously, I agree with you when you say that one less good equipment (digital or analogue) may have a negative impact on the overall performance of the system. I say "may", because in one system/room it may exagerate some bad things, but on other system/room it may do otherwise, compensating/filtering some bad things.
But that, I believe, is because something was already "wrong", or less well, before. Synergy is important, because nothing is perfect.

To me, burn in and stabilization are different things.
I agree with you regarding stabilization, mainly because every equipment needs some time, depending on the ambiance temperature, to get to it's normal (desired?) working temperature. And temperature influences materials and makes them contract or expand. That's why, to me, very demanding and accurate lab equipment may need re-calibration if turned off for some time (I may be wrong).
A DAC, CD player, tuner, amp, all get to is normal running temperature in less than an hour, so I can't imagine why they would need 50 hours to give it's best. But, like I said previously, it must be so easy to demonstrate if I'm right or wrong, that it would be excellent if someone, with the necessary gear, made some tests to show us (again, I may be wrong).

What do manufacturers advise regarding burn in? (please exclude, for obviously reasons, speakers, etc.)
"Some people say it sounded better after X hours burning in"
or
"This equipment needs X hours burning in before it works as it should"?

Yes, it would be nice to make some swaps and tests, but I'm a bit far from you...
Every equipment sounds different, of course, but I expect very good electronics to be as accurate and neutral as possible and, so, with only mild differences in sound presentation (caracter?) between them.
Speakers, on the other way, are different. They will interact with the room and everything around them, making them somehow less predictable.

How does your Meridian 508 CD compares with tour SEG, for instance?


Thanks,
Luis

[struth]

I never used to be much on burn in with ss equipment, but i have found my new quad vena2 to be exhibiting this phenomenon.
Reason i know is i wasnt overly in love with the dac section, good as it was i felt my xs dac was a fair bit superior, and thus although connected and no doubt powered up when amp has been in use, ive not been listening that way.
When i went back for a listen recently i found it had improved a fair bit on its new state.

So i will see how it goes in a few months. Main system isnt on as much as my headphone rig, so it can take a fair period of time for me to put the hrs in.

As for stan,s guarantees and service, his are as good as any and better than most, and especially impressive considering the fairly low cost of his equipment .

[pitadavespa]

Your expectations of a vendor seem to me to be completely unrealistic. Stan offers an unconditional returns option to unhappy purchasers. You have benefitted from this and yet to expect him to devote (his unpaid) time to talk you out of returning the unit. Do you think that if you had bought a DAC from a big international company that they would behave any differently. I doubt if Stan makes much from each unit he sells and certainly not from the upgrades he offers which seem to me to be priced on a parts only basis.

You were unhappy with the unit which is fine: if you didn't like it that is your personal choice, though by your own admission you spent very little time listening to the unit. I am guessing that you didn't spend any time experimenting with the different sound profiles. You seem to be suggesting that there is a conspiracy of silence regarding reviews of the SEG. On what evidence do you make this claim and do you have any sense of how commercially damaging this might be to a small business.

Hi, Geoff.

Again (and I already talked about Stan and his DAC more than I'd like me to), I didn't expect him to devote time to me, but I confess I'd like him to have defended his product or, at least, tried to understand what could be wrong.
Like I said, I would have posted a very positive review of my experience if it was positive. So, why not give my opinion just because it's negative?

I'm not trying to do any harm to Stan's business. In fact, I have read hundreds of great positive reviews about his DACs over the years and I can't imagine why my opinion, when it's just that, when no one knows me or my system, would do him any harm. He has hundreds (or maybe thousands) of happy customers! I'm just one!
Also, because of those hundreds of good/excellent experiences you guys have with his products, I decided to buy one, in order to upgrade my system. It didn't work out for me and I payed for it, but I'm not saying you guys shouldn't have write those positive reviews because you are doing good to his business and ended up making me spend my money, am I?
In the end, this is a forum and we discuss ideas, hopping we all learn something, right?

I hope I made my point, although sometimes is a bit difficult because English is not my main language.
But I hope I was clear enough.


Regards,
Luis

[Sherwood]

Hi, Geoff.

Again (and I already talked about Stan and his DAC more than I'd like me to), I didn't expect him to devote time to me, but I confess I'd like him to have defended his product or, at least, tried to understand what could be wrong.
Like I said, I would have posted a very positive review of my experience if it was positive. So, why not give my opinion just because it's negative?

I'm not trying to do any harm to Stan's business. In fact, I have read hundreds of great positive reviews about his DACs over the years and I can't imagine why my opinion, when it's just that, when no one knows me or my system, would do him any harm. He has hundreds (or maybe thousands) of happy customers! I'm just one!
Also, because of those hundreds of good/excellent experiences you guys have with his products, I decided to buy one, in order to upgrade my system. It didn't work out for me and I payed for it, but I'm not saying you guys shouldn't have write those positive reviews because you are doing good to his business and ended up making me spend my money, am I?
In the end, this is a forum and we discuss ideas, hopping we all learn something, right?

I hope I made my point, although sometimes is a bit difficult because English is not my main language.
But I hope I was clear enough.


Regards,
Luis

Did you try the different sound signatures in your brief trial of the unit?

[pitadavespa]

I never used to be much on burn in with ss equipment, but i have found my new quad vena2 to be exhibiting this phenomenon.
Reason i know is i wasnt overly in love with the dac section, good as it was i felt my xs dac was a fair bit superior, and thus although connected and no doubt powered up when amp has been in use, ive not been listening that way.
When i went back for a listen recently i found it had improved a fair bit on its new state.

So i will see how it goes in a few months. Main system isnt on as much as my headphone rig, so it can take a fair period of time for me to put the hrs in.

As for stan,s guarantees and service, his are as good as any and better than most, and especially impressive considering the fairly low cost of his equipment .

Hi, Grant.

You may be right.
But I believe our mood/brain/ears and listening conditions are more influential than all the rest. Even a good glass of wine can make the difference.

Regarding Stan, I wish him the best and won't talk more about him or his business.


Cheers,
L