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Thread: Grounding boxes - The real deal

  1. #211
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
    "The prejudice I was referring to was in relation to the propensity of staunch objectivists to arrogantly dismiss everything that doesn't fit with their scientific belief system"

    What actually is gong on, is a corruption of the scientific method to provide comfort to the espouser; they are not usually entirely objective, and mask their lack of intellectual rigour with a stance of arrogant aggression.

    In my time with Auntie, this was a cultural norm, the body language expressing contempt for anyone less qualified, as though they must implicitly be inferior in all they thought and did.
    Brilliant, Dennis. We haven't had a 'Captain Insightful' post from you for ages! Needless to say, I think you're *spot on*. It certainly reflects my experience, and my view of what's happening.

    You're last sentence, however, is especially revealing and rather interesting. Would you say that this "cultural norm" has bred the type of arrogant aggression and dogma, often displayed on forums by 'engineering types'/objectivists? Also, what caused this "cultural norm" to start with, and which also appears to have bred the (often unjustified) sense of superiority you've mentioned?

    Now before someone jumps down my throat, I'm NOT saying that the above applies to all engineers, far from it [there are many on here who don't display such traits], but I have to say it certainly applies to a goodly dose of them I've encountered on forums, since I first stared posting on them - and it has caused no end of friction and fallouts, especially when people like me won't just put up with it.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  2. #212
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratmangler View Post
    Weirdly enough it's the SMPS units that generate more RFI than the mobile phones.
    RFI simply stands for radio frequency interference, and it isn't necessarily air borne.
    All the SMPS units switch at radio frequencies.
    Yup mate, I know, and your (valid) post simply backs up what I've been saying, and which is why you need to eradicate them wherever possible. With mains quality, we've never had it worse - and it's not going to improve anytime soon either!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  3. #213
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: W Lothian

    Posts: 99,005
    I'm Grant.

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    alas ive loads of smps; not a lot i can do about it really either.
    Regards,
    Grant .... ؠ ......Don't be such a big girl's blouse

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    “You see these dictators on their pedestals, surrounded by the bayonets of their soldiers and the truncheons of their police ... yet in their hearts there is unspoken fear. They are afraid of words and thoughts: words spoken abroad, thoughts stirring at home -- all the more powerful because forbidden -- terrify them. A little mouse of thought appears in the room, and even the mightiest potentates are thrown into panic.”

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  4. #214
    Join Date: Jul 2009

    Location: Hampshire, UK

    Posts: 3,662
    I'm Adam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    No thoughts on post #200?

    Marco.
    All good! I shall continue to put my side of the case, then, but will of course refrain from going all Frank Drebin on anyone and calling them "Mr. Poopy-Pants".
    Engineers: fixing problems you didn't know you had in ways you don't understand.

  5. #215
    Join Date: Nov 2008

    Location: Valley of the Hazels

    Posts: 9,139
    I'm AMusicFanNotAnAudiophile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Yup mate, I know, and your (valid) post simply backs up what I've been saying, and which is why you need to eradicate them wherever possible. With mains quality, we've never had it worse - and it's not going to improve anytime soon either!

    Marco.
    Eradicating them altogether is not going to happen - they use something like 20% of the power a linear psu does.
    If every manufacturer of electrical devices moved back to using linear PSUs the power requirements nationally would exceed generating capacity.

    SMPS manufacturers should make them with a much higher standard of filtering, so that the use of SMPS has no effect at all on locally connected euipment, but that will in turn have a knock on effect on the cost per unit to manufacture.
    So it won't happen.

    Ferrite chokes are a relatively inexpensive way of significantly reducing mains borne RFI.

    The
    Chris



    Common sense isn't anymore!

  6. #216
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 6,772
    I'm James.

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    Honestly if the outside world read this post regarding the subject of a grounding box they would be amused and bemused like I am.
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

  7. #217
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 13,241
    I'm Adrian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJSki2fly View Post
    I thought some of you might find this an interesting and informative read in relation to Ground/Earth loops, noise and inductance issues with all sorts of stuff, including video and hifi.

    Page 56 for about 10 pages are useful info, 99-101 are quite informative, but it is all good stuff.

    There is a load of information further on about noise elimination methods and what works and what does not.

    It is from Bill Whitlock, President
    Jensen Transformers, Inc.
    Life Fellow, Audio Engineering Society
    Life Senior Member, Institute of Electrical & Electronic Engineers

    https://centralindianaaes.files.word...notes-v1-0.pdf

    I am sure you can then make educated conclusions as to whether a grounding box will or won't work depending on what you find inside it.
    Referring to the 2 previous posts from Marco and Pharos I would suggest people have a read of the above, it is lengthy but IMO deals with various aspects of Earth/ground and the issues of interference and noise floor, and from an engineer in the field so to speak.
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs: Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges, Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:- Marantz SA-KI Pearl CD player, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi+ Pro, Buffalo NAS Drive

    Amplification:- AudioValve Sunilda phono stage, Krell KSP-7B pre-amp, Krell KSA-80 power amp

    Output: Wilson Benesch Vector speakers, KLH Ultimate One Headphones

    Cables: Tellurium Q Ultra Black II RCA & Chord Epic 2 RCA, various speaker leads, & links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

  8. #218
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by struth View Post
    alas ive loads of smps; not a lot i can do about it really either.
    Course you can...

    Firstly, minimise the amount of gear you use with SMPS in the first place, and in terms of audio equipment, only use stuff that's fitted with a fully-regulated linear PSU. If you have to buy older gear to facilitate that, then so be it. Secondly, when not in use, disconnect all non-essential items with SMPS from the mains supply (computers, phone chargers, etc), during times when you're listening to music.

    Thirdly, where possible in the audio chain, replace SMPS units with fully-regulated linear PSUs, such I've had done in my streaming set-up.

    Both of my hard-drives and router are all powered from a dedicated linear PSU [designed and built by Duncan for less than £300], and their original cheap, shitty (noisy) SMPS ones chucked in the bin - and all of that has allowed my streaming system to perform better, sonically.

    As they say, 'Where there's a will, there's a way'...

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  9. #219
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratmangler View Post
    Eradicating them altogether is not going to happen - they use something like 20% of the power a linear psu does.
    If every manufacturer of electrical devices moved back to using linear PSUs the power requirements nationally would exceed generating capacity.

    SMPS manufacturers should make them with a much higher standard of filtering, so that the use of SMPS has no effect at all on locally connected euipment, but that will in turn have a knock on effect on the cost per unit to manufacture.
    So it won't happen.

    Ferrite chokes are a relatively inexpensive way of significantly reducing mains borne RFI.
    I agree with all of that, but it's still no excuse to be lazy or apathetic towards the situation, as I've just outlined, if you *truly* want the best sound!

    The
    The what? The chances of Man City winning a European trophy sometime soon are slim?

    Only kidding!!!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  10. #220
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,783
    I'm Martin.

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    I've only got the TV and cable box using smps - I did try disconnecting them entirely when listening (they would normally be in 'standby' mode - made no difference I could discern.

    Also sometimes listen with the tv on and the sound down, again can't hear any difference.

    Okay so I can't say for certain from that one instance that the whole SMPS thing is a none issue but I suspect it is. Maybe if you have loads of the things plugged in all over the house it might be more noticeable.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

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