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Thread: Grounding boxes - The real deal

  1. #231
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

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    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratmangler View Post
    With the central heating boiler, washing machine, microwave, fridge/freezer, TV, BDP etc the tally goes up even higher on the SMPS count.
    That's how all pervasive the problem is.
    Got a gas boiler (and central heating, plus wood burner), washing machine is only plugged in and used at night when we're in bed, and the microwave is very rarely on. The only thing that stays on 24/7 is the fridge freezer, for obvious reasons.

    In truth, we don't have that much SMPS shit going on, because we're not 'tech freaks'. We even use the batteries on our laptops, and put them on charge overnight (similarly with mobile phones), so they don't inject any crap either when we're around, and there are no other computers in the house.

    If I could, I'd have the TV and Virgin V6 box powered by a linear PSU!

    Marco.

  2. #232
    Join Date: Jan 2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by NRG View Post
    I’ve just counted 25 smps wall warts ‘in use’ throughout the house
    Jeez - what's all that pish for?

    Marco.

  3. #233
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: nr. Cambridge

    Posts: 18
    I'm bob.

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    To get back to grounding boxes, first a quote from Nordost about their Q-Core -

    The QKORE is a parallel grounding device, which provides an artificial, “clean” earth for hifi audio systems using both an electrical and mechanical approach. This unique product combines Nordost’s patented Mono-Filament technology with purpose-built, Low-Voltage Attractor Plates (LVAPs), constructed with a proprietary metal alloy and a passive electronic circuit, in order to draw stray high frequency noise and voltage-generated magnetic fields to a manufactured earth point, leaving a clean reference behind. This passive system is contained in a mechanically tuned housing, and outfitted with gold-plated, WBT binding posts, which easily connect each component to an artificial ground. By providing for a balanced and very “clean” ground point, by-products of electrical balance imperfections between voltage and ground are no longer added to other pollutants, dramatically increasing high quality audio circuit performances.

    Next, a link to Hifi+ magazine test of the Vertex Pico -

    http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/ver...unding-blocks/

    Both Nordost and Vertex units are to combat the same problem as the Entreq boxes, but are probably not filled with with similar materials.

  4. #234
    Join Date: Apr 2018

    Location: Brighton

    Posts: 48
    I'm Jason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Course you can...

    Firstly, minimise the amount of gear you use with SMPS in the first place, and in terms of audio equipment, only use stuff that's fitted with a fully-regulated linear PSU. If you have to buy older gear to facilitate that, then so be it. Secondly, when not in use, disconnect all non-essential items with SMPS from the mains supply (computers, phone chargers, etc), during times when you're listening to music.

    Thirdly, where possible in the audio chain, replace SMPS units with fully-regulated linear PSUs, such I've had done in my streaming set-up.
    Considering pretty much all my gear uses SMPS’s this would be highly impracticable. IME the SMPS v’s Linear PS is pretty much a non-issue, there are good and bad examples of both.

  5. #235
    Join Date: Jan 2008

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    I agree, Jason, but only one generates switching noise, by the very nature of how it works

    However, as you say, there are good and bad examples of both, and it's how things work, as a whole, that ultimately matters most

    Marco.

  6. #236
    Join Date: May 2018

    Location: London

    Posts: 20
    I'm Peter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJSki2fly View Post
    Referring to the 2 previous posts from Marco and Pharos I would suggest people have a read of the above, it is lengthy but IMO deals with various aspects of Earth/ground and the issues of interference and noise floor, and from an engineer in the field so to speak.
    I don't see where he is referring to the effect of signal grounding boxes? It seems to be about reducing hum from a system. Though it is very technical so I can’t be entirely sure.

  7. #237
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: W Lothian

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    I'm Grant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Course you can...

    Firstly, minimise the amount of gear you use with SMPS in the first place, and in terms of audio equipment, only use stuff that's fitted with a fully-regulated linear PSU. If you have to buy older gear to facilitate that, then so be it. Secondly, when not in use, disconnect all non-essential items with SMPS from the mains supply (computers, phone chargers, etc), during times when you're listening to music.

    Thirdly, where possible in the audio chain, replace SMPS units with fully-regulated linear PSUs, such I've had done in my streaming set-up.

    Both of my hard-drives and router are all powered from a dedicated linear PSU [designed and built by Duncan for less than £300], and their original cheap, shitty (noisy) SMPS ones chucked in the bin - and all of that has allowed my streaming system to perform better, sonically.

    As they say, 'Where there's a will, there's a way'...

    Marco.
    Would cost quite a lot. I've a few down back of Hifi that I can't reach so they stay on.
    I agree it's not optimal but my system isn't either I guess. If I was changing them the first would likely be the router smps
    Regards,
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  8. #238
    Join Date: May 2018

    Location: London

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    I'm Peter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Hi Adam,



    There's nothing for me to forgive in that post mate, as I completely agree!

    The prejudice I was referring to was in relation to the propensity of staunch objectivists to arrogantly dismiss everything that doesn't fit with their scientific belief system, and how they turn what are simply their personal views, not fact, into a form of dogma. And incidentally, I don't include you in that.

    I have nothing whatsoever against introducing a bit of science into subjects such as this, but only if it's done constructively, for the reason of providing helpful information, and that's helpful for the OP of the thread concerned, or others interested in the item being discussed, not for someone simply to feel better about themselves, because they've just rubbished a product that they consider as "foo"!

    So please feel free to point out what you see fit (even measurements and shit, if you want), as you *always* express your views on ANY subject, politely, whilst being courteous towards those you disagree with. Unfortunately, that can't be said for many of the engineers I've met on forums [including the one I've just banned], who tend to be rather inconsiderate and self-centred, dogmatic types.

    When you're communicating on forums with others of different beliefs and mindsets, it always boils down to this:

    It's NOT what you say, but *HOW* you say it!

    So before barging onto threads, with all the subtlety of an elephant, to ridicule or rubbish a product, consider what effect that will have on anyone who owns it.

    Marco.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Brilliant, Dennis. We haven't had a 'Captain Insightful' post from you for ages! Needless to say, I think you're *spot on*. It certainly reflects my experience, and my view of what's happening.

    You're last sentence, however, is especially revealing and rather interesting. Would you say that this "cultural norm" has bred the type of arrogant aggression and dogma, often displayed on forums by 'engineering types'/objectivists? Also, what caused this "cultural norm" to start with, and which also appears to have bred the (often unjustified) sense of superiority you've mentioned?

    Now before someone jumps down my throat, I'm NOT saying that the above applies to all engineers, far from it [there are many on here who don't display such traits], but I have to say it certainly applies to a goodly dose of them I've encountered on forums, since I first stared posting on them - and it has caused no end of friction and fallouts, especially when people like me won't just put up with it.

    Marco.
    I have to say what a pleasure it is reading this thread. The previously mentioned taken down thread on the pf forum was horrible to come across. The thread was started with a post about how wonderful a particular grounding box was and inviting anyone to his home to listen to the effect. This was followed by a torrent of piss-taking and abuse, some even by dealers and manufacturers, who you would think would not want to ridicule potential customers. Of course no one with a positive experience with grounding boxes dared chip in. It is refreshing on AoS that Marco you keep the discussion cordial and thereby encourage debate.

    The arrogance and rudeness of some of the 'objectivists' remains a mystery to me. I simply cannot comprehend their motivation for expending so much energy on forums espousing negativity. And repeatedly telling people that they are not really hearing what they think they are hearing. It is such odd behaviour.

    On Grounding Boxes - I have listened to a few manufacturer's versions: I heard no difference on one, a minor difference on another, and a major difference on a third. The differences were real, I was not experiencing 'expectation bias' (which would have applied to all three had it been in existence - though to be truthful I don't experience this so called 'expectation bias' since I have no preconceived expectation of what will or will not improve or detract from the sound, so there is no bias to fulfill).

    And it is liberating to know I can post this without knowing someone will tell me I am a fraud for hearing the improvement a grounding box presents.

  9. #239
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

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    I'm Adrian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckworp View Post
    I don't see where he is referring to the effect of signal grounding boxes? It seems to be about reducing hum from a system. Though it is very technical so I can’t be entirely sure.
    He does not talk about grounding boxes but discusses at length the issues a grounding box tries to address, lowering noise floor, earth/grounding issues, and how hum is induced. He warms about interconnecting multiple units to the same ground if I recall correctly. So it is definitely worth reading imo


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  10. #240
    Join Date: Oct 2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckworp View Post
    I have to say what a pleasure it is reading this thread. The previously mentioned taken down thread on the pf forum was horrible to come across. The thread was started with a post about how wonderful a particular grounding box was and inviting anyone to his home to listen to the effect. This was followed by a torrent of piss-taking and abuse, some even by dealers and manufacturers, who you would think would not want to ridicule potential customers. Of course no one with a positive experience with grounding boxes dared chip in. It is refreshing on AoS that Marco you keep the discussion cordial and thereby encourage debate.

    The arrogance and rudeness of some of the 'objectivists' remains a mystery to me. I simply cannot comprehend their motivation for expending so much energy on forums espousing negativity. And repeatedly telling people that they are not really hearing what they think they are hearing. It is such odd behaviour.

    On Grounding Boxes - I have listened to a few manufacturer's versions: I heard no difference on one, a minor difference on another, and a major difference on a third. The differences were real, I was not experiencing 'expectation bias' (which would have applied to all three had it been in existence - though to be truthful I don't experience this so called 'expectation bias' since I have no preconceived expectation of what will or will not improve or detract from the sound, so there is no bias to fulfill).

    And it is liberating to know I can post this without knowing someone will tell me I am a fraud for hearing the improvement a grounding box presents.
    Excellent post Peter

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