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Thread: Cartridge suspension

  1. #1
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 4,673
    I'm James.

    Default Cartridge suspension

    In order to compensate for cartridge suspension wear should I raise or lower the back of my tonearm?
    VPI Scout 1.1 - Ortofon 2M Black FGS - Croft 25R+ - Croft Series 7 - Spendor SP2

  2. #2
    Join Date: Nov 2015

    Location: Wolverhampton

    Posts: 8,910
    I'm Oliver.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    In order to compensate for cartridge suspension wear should I raise or lower the back of my tonearm?
    As long as it's level when playing, why change it?
    Analogue: Technics SP10 MK2 > Phonomac AT-1010 MK6 tonearm > Ortofon Kontrapunkt b > Bigbottle Jfet MC Valve Phonostage (Telefunken Valves)
    Digital: Raspberry Pi 3+/Allo Boss 1.2/Isolator 1.3 & 2x LPSU's with Volumio & JRiver
    Amplification: Nelson Pass DCB1 with Khozmo 48 Step Series Attenuator & Krell KSA100 MK2 Amplifier
    Cables: SPOTFIRE Speaker Cable & SPOTFIRE IC Cables & SPOTFIRE Tonearm cable
    Speakers: Pioneer CS-77A
    Price List For SPOTFIRE Cables here:https://bit.ly/2Uxiv3j

    Alternative reading: http://www.audioaddictsforum.com

  3. #3
    Join Date: May 2012

    Location: London

    Posts: 419
    I'm Spartacus.

    Default

    Lower the back, if the cart is riding lower.
    Cheers, Jeff

  4. #4
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 4,673
    I'm James.

    Default

    I was thinking about this as I believe there was a post on here referring to sagging suspension. I think it was Rob who mentioned the sound had changed in his system possibly due to suspension wear. As you may know Oli my cartridge never sits level as the shibata stylus responds to running the arm slightly up or down from level depending on what sound you are looking for.

    Therefore if the suspension wears ever so slightly to get back to the sweet spot I would need to adjust cartridge hence my question. I suppose it's a matter of adjusting VTA again and listening until it sounds right.
    VPI Scout 1.1 - Ortofon 2M Black FGS - Croft 25R+ - Croft Series 7 - Spendor SP2

  5. #5
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 4,673
    I'm James.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rubber duck View Post
    Lower the back, if the cart is riding lower.
    Cheers Jeff this was what I was thinking. Just wanted someone else to confirm what I thought.
    VPI Scout 1.1 - Ortofon 2M Black FGS - Croft 25R+ - Croft Series 7 - Spendor SP2

  6. #6
    Join Date: Nov 2015

    Location: Wolverhampton

    Posts: 8,910
    I'm Oliver.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    I was thinking about this as I believe there was a post on here referring to sagging suspension. I think it was Rob who mentioned the sound had changed in his system possibly due to suspension wear. As you may know Oli my cartridge never sits level as the shibata stylus responds to running the arm slightly up or down from level depending on what sound you are looking for.

    Therefore if the suspension wears ever so slightly to get back to the sweet spot I would need to adjust cartridge hence my question. I suppose it's a matter of adjusting VTA again and listening until it sounds right.
    Of course, sorry mate, I totally forgot.
    Analogue: Technics SP10 MK2 > Phonomac AT-1010 MK6 tonearm > Ortofon Kontrapunkt b > Bigbottle Jfet MC Valve Phonostage (Telefunken Valves)
    Digital: Raspberry Pi 3+/Allo Boss 1.2/Isolator 1.3 & 2x LPSU's with Volumio & JRiver
    Amplification: Nelson Pass DCB1 with Khozmo 48 Step Series Attenuator & Krell KSA100 MK2 Amplifier
    Cables: SPOTFIRE Speaker Cable & SPOTFIRE IC Cables & SPOTFIRE Tonearm cable
    Speakers: Pioneer CS-77A
    Price List For SPOTFIRE Cables here:https://bit.ly/2Uxiv3j

    Alternative reading: http://www.audioaddictsforum.com

  7. #7
    Join Date: May 2012

    Location: London

    Posts: 419
    I'm Spartacus.

    Default

    But have you actually noticed your suspension sagging? Surely this would have other knock on effects aside from VTA, e.g. compliance and tracking?
    Cheers, Jeff

  8. #8
    Join Date: Apr 2011

    Location: London

    Posts: 3,611
    I'm Robert.

    Default

    In my case I think where I had my Cadenza rebuilt, retipped etc the suspension had also maybe naturally softened up a bit after some long playing sessions of burn in before and over the Christmas, including a number of not exactly flat lp's as I went through a lot.

    As everything else seemed fine and vta hadnt changed, my assumption was changes over the period with the suspension which also plays its part in terms of why sometimes the set up sweetspot is suddenly lost.
    My System:
    Amplification - Sansui AU-alpha 707 DR
    Turntable - Modified Technics SL1210 MK5G
    Mike New precision bearing, bearing base plate, ETP Platter
    Micro Seiki MA-202 tonearm, rewired, hybrid ceramic bearings
    Ortofon Cadenza Black moving coil cartridge - Fritz Gyger S re-tip
    Yannis Tome 423.5 Silver-Litz tonearm cable with KLEI Pure Silver Harmony plugs
    Ebony armboard
    Audio Technica MS-8 Magnesium headshell, Ortofon pure silver headshell leads
    Isonoe Isolation Feet
    Paul Hynes SR7EHD PSU (plus regulator modules), DCSXL pure-silver DC lead with Jaegar low impedance connector
    CDP - Pioneer PD-91
    Speakers - Spendor D7 on Soundcare SuperSpikes
    QED Silver Spiral speaker cable, Airlock plugs - bare wire amp end.
    Mains - Ultra Pure silver plated un-switched socket, Missing link EPS 500 silver plated plugs with Hi-Fi Tuning gold plated silver ceramic 13 amp fuses

  9. #9
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 4,673
    I'm James.

    Default

    I have heard a difference recently and checked VTA VTF and overhang and azimuth and all were spot on so l put it down to the cartridge having changed a little either the stylus was wearing or maybe suspension had changed a little. As the 2M is very fernickity with set up maybe the angle of the stylus had changed which maybe why I have heard a little less precision in the soundstage and high end detail?
    VPI Scout 1.1 - Ortofon 2M Black FGS - Croft 25R+ - Croft Series 7 - Spendor SP2

  10. #10
    Join Date: Apr 2011

    Location: London

    Posts: 3,611
    I'm Robert.

    Default

    Another thing that I was always aware of to some degree, but which has become even more apparent to me in the context of this, ie: 'sweetspot drop out' whilst other paramiters have seemingly not changed is temperature.

    Looking at this, past and current experiences and pondering things over, I'm convinced that temperature change absolutely plays its part and most definately the extremes.

    My system room is generally quite cool, bare wooden floors, bare white walls, 1930's house, you get the picture.

    It is exposed to a lot of changes in temperature and temperature extremes.

    It is normally a cool room, then throughout the day it can become very warm (south facing) with direct sunlight flooding in through the patio window doors.

    With winter upon us, it then goes from it's normal cool, to quite warm with the direct sunlight coming through, then as the direct sunlight dissapears, temperature drops again to cool.

    Add to that the central heating temperature increases throughout the day and evening as well, then the big temperature dip with the central heating off throughout the length of the night until morning / afternoon and you'll see what I'm getting at.

    With this repeated cycle and knowing the nature of metal, wood and matter, It has dawned on me that this is a key factor as to why this sudden seemily unexplainable shift or drop out occurs, especially when, as you and I have both experinced, all the usual set -up parameters have remained the same / untouched.

    Coupled with this, think about what we would regard as the 'tiny' expand or contraction that temperature causes to metals, screws, wires, matter etc.

    Although we cannot see those 'tiny' expand / contract occurances, in the context of our stylus, cartridge componants, wires, cantilever and then in relation to our record groove area and positioning etc, the truth is that those 'tiny' changes are in fact having a pretty big alteration and effect when you really think about it, hence what occurs.

    By nature, I've learned that vinyl replay is a very delicate, intricate, finicky and vulnerable environment, It's a balancing act, unfortunately there is so much that affects that balance.

    I've read it's any wonder it actually works but we know it does, It isnt for everyone as plug and play it most certainly is not.

    And then to add to all of that, the best and more true presenting cartridges, carry what are known as sophisticated stylus profiles, which tend to have a larger contact area in terms of the tracing of the groove wall.

    They dig deep and pull more information in regard to the recorded music in my experience - BUT as s&ds law would have it, there's a price to pay for that (nothing comes free and easy in this game as we know) which is that these sophisticated stylus profiles ie: Shibata, Replicant / Fritz Gyger S etc require meticulous set up by the nature of those profiles, requiring that they sit properly and accurately in the groove and as they trace the groove walls.

    Unfortunately this also means they are very much affected by the slightest adjustments and changes, hence ......


    Below is the basic stuf I'm sure we all know from school and as asked online:

    Why does heat make metal expand?
    When a material is heated, the kinetic energy of that material increases and it's atoms and molecules move about more. This means that each atom will take up more space due to it's movement so the material will expand. ... Some metals expand more than others due to differences in the forces between the atoms / molecules.

    What happens to metal when heated?
    Metal expands when heated. Length, surface area and volume will increase with temperature. ... The degree of thermal expansion varies with different types of metal. Thermal expansion occurs because heat increases the vibrations of the atoms in the metal.

    Why do materials expand and contract when temperature changes?
    Thermal Expansion and Contraction. Materials expand or contract when subjected to changes in temperature. Most materials expand when they are heated, and contract when they are cooled. When free to deform, concrete will expand or contract due to fluctuations in temperature.

    Does all metal expand when heated?
    Some substances simply expand more easily than others. If you heat wires of aluminum, iron, and tungsten metals—all the wires being the same size and heated to the same temperature—each wire will expand by a different amount. The ease with which a substance expands is given by its coefficient of expansion.


    Why do materials expand and contract when temperature changes?
    Thermal Expansion and Contraction. Materials expand or contract when subjected to changes in temperature. Most materials expand when they are heated, and contract when they are cooled. When free to deform, concrete will expand or contract due to fluctuations in temperature.


    and on it goes.......
    My System:
    Amplification - Sansui AU-alpha 707 DR
    Turntable - Modified Technics SL1210 MK5G
    Mike New precision bearing, bearing base plate, ETP Platter
    Micro Seiki MA-202 tonearm, rewired, hybrid ceramic bearings
    Ortofon Cadenza Black moving coil cartridge - Fritz Gyger S re-tip
    Yannis Tome 423.5 Silver-Litz tonearm cable with KLEI Pure Silver Harmony plugs
    Ebony armboard
    Audio Technica MS-8 Magnesium headshell, Ortofon pure silver headshell leads
    Isonoe Isolation Feet
    Paul Hynes SR7EHD PSU (plus regulator modules), DCSXL pure-silver DC lead with Jaegar low impedance connector
    CDP - Pioneer PD-91
    Speakers - Spendor D7 on Soundcare SuperSpikes
    QED Silver Spiral speaker cable, Airlock plugs - bare wire amp end.
    Mains - Ultra Pure silver plated un-switched socket, Missing link EPS 500 silver plated plugs with Hi-Fi Tuning gold plated silver ceramic 13 amp fuses

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