+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Cartridge Suspension

  1. #1
    Join Date: Apr 2011

    Location: London

    Posts: 3,450
    I'm Robert.

    Default Cartridge Suspension

    I've learned loads so much over the years when it comes to hifi and actually thought I'd learned all I need to know in particular regards tt-tonearm-cartridge-stylus setup.

    Having recently had my Cadenza Black re-tipped I've been as happy as a pig in poo once I'd set up and found that joyous sweetspot.

    Have had the best replay from my system and had told myself that that was it, time to savour every moment.

    Simply switch system on, pull out an album, play and bask in the delights there of.

    All had been going to plan but as is with these things ..........

    I noticed the other day that the sound was not what it was which was fabulous.

    There was a splashiness to the presentation and less of the pin point focus, separation and out and out rightness I've been spoilt with.

    What I've learnt, realised and never ever considered at all, is that after the initial re-tip / re-build and subsequent burn in, the suspension has also settled / loosened up then after daily service over the weeks.

    Christmas in particular saw some serious tunes being spun, including some that were not as flat as I usually obsess over, but hey ho it was Christmas and I got through a ton.

    So, as much as I hate having to do it I have to go at final vta adjust to nail that sweetspot again.

    Another lesson learned - In this game, it looks like changes will naturally occur over the course of time, suspension, wear and even temperature all play a part.

    All have an effect which means that set and forget is not always a given after set up has been done - things can, may and do still change, right up until the end of the stylus's useful life.
    Last edited by RobbieGong; 05-01-2019 at 11:19.
    My System:
    Amplification - Sansui AU-alpha 707 DR
    Turntable - Modified Technics SL1210 MK5G
    Mike New precision bearing, bearing base plate, ETP Platter
    Micro Seiki MA-202 tonearm, rewired, hybrid ceramic bearings
    Ortofon Cadenza Black moving coil cartridge - Fritz Gyger S re-tip
    Yannis Tome 423.5 Silver-Litz tonearm cable with KLEI Pure Silver Harmony plugs
    Ebony armboard
    Audio Technica MS-8 Magnesium headshell, Ortofon pure silver headshell leads
    Isonoe Isolation Feet
    Paul Hynes SR7EHD PSU (plus regulator modules), DCSXL pure-silver DC lead with Jaegar low impedance connector
    CDP - Pioneer PD-91
    Speakers - Spendor D7 on Soundcare SuperSpikes
    QED Silver Spiral speaker cable, Airlock plugs - bare wire amp end.
    Mains - Ultra Pure silver plated un-switched socket, Missing link EPS 500 silver plated plugs with Hi-Fi Tuning gold plated silver ceramic 13 amp fuses

  2. #2
    Join Date: Sep 2014

    Location: brighton uk.

    Posts: 3,754
    I'm jamie.

    Default

    i know what you mean,but the more we do it the easier it becomes to do and spot.
    for me i use just one record with a double bass to set vta,then fine tune the tracking weight to get in the magic place.
    My System
    John Wood KT88 Amp.
    Paradise Phono Stage
    Sony TTS-8000,Pioneer PLC-590 Turntables.
    PMAT-1010 MK6 and Pioneer PA-5000 Tonearms.
    Sony X555ES Cd Player
    Yamaha NS1000m Speakers
    Karma Cable interconnects

  3. #3
    Join Date: May 2017

    Location: West Sussex, UK

    Posts: 528
    I'm Steve.

    Default

    Hi Robert

    Iv had the very same thing only because of lack of use.
    I've been without a phono stage for a while so bought a
    stand in stage untill i finish my bigbottle stage.
    I pluged in and switched on and thought what a load of crap.
    I re did everything, vta, tracking weight, bias,overhang.
    Re played an album and it sounded just like it should.
    Just goes to show you need to check and re adjust regularly

    Steve...
    Project 2experience sb dc, Cart: At33ptg
    Firebottle Mono Blocks
    Nelson Pass Dcb1 turbo Dual Mono @ 1.2A. Khozmo 50k series attenuator.
    CD Player: Cyrus cd8se
    Dynaudio Emit M20
    Spotfire rca throughout - xt40 speaker cable.

    Steve...

  4. #4
    Join Date: Apr 2011

    Location: London

    Posts: 3,450
    I'm Robert.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by karma67 View Post
    i know what you mean,but the more we do it the easier it becomes to do and spot.
    for me i use just one record with a double bass to set vta,then fine tune the tracking weight to get in the magic place.
    Yeah, we've had enough practice.

    The 2M Black was the killer teacher, as in ' there aint no nearly right here'

    The Shibatas are a fussy in general so the Quintet Black and Cadenza Black that followed it werent exactly stroll in the park, but not quite the always 'fatigued to death' experince of the 2MB

    The Frtiz Gyger S is another sophisticated profile that requires careful set up but I as you say, I know what I'm listening for and have a couple of tracks I use.

    Still hate having to re-go there. I kind of just wish once done it was done but hey ho - life, or should I say hifi / vinyl replay eh
    My System:
    Amplification - Sansui AU-alpha 707 DR
    Turntable - Modified Technics SL1210 MK5G
    Mike New precision bearing, bearing base plate, ETP Platter
    Micro Seiki MA-202 tonearm, rewired, hybrid ceramic bearings
    Ortofon Cadenza Black moving coil cartridge - Fritz Gyger S re-tip
    Yannis Tome 423.5 Silver-Litz tonearm cable with KLEI Pure Silver Harmony plugs
    Ebony armboard
    Audio Technica MS-8 Magnesium headshell, Ortofon pure silver headshell leads
    Isonoe Isolation Feet
    Paul Hynes SR7EHD PSU (plus regulator modules), DCSXL pure-silver DC lead with Jaegar low impedance connector
    CDP - Pioneer PD-91
    Speakers - Spendor D7 on Soundcare SuperSpikes
    QED Silver Spiral speaker cable, Airlock plugs - bare wire amp end.
    Mains - Ultra Pure silver plated un-switched socket, Missing link EPS 500 silver plated plugs with Hi-Fi Tuning gold plated silver ceramic 13 amp fuses

  5. #5
    Join Date: Apr 2011

    Location: London

    Posts: 3,450
    I'm Robert.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by STD305M View Post
    Hi Robert

    Iv had the very same thing only because of lack of use.
    I've been without a phono stage for a while so bought a
    stand in stage untill i finish my bigbottle stage.
    I pluged in and switched on and thought what a load of crap.
    I re did everything, vta, tracking weight, bias,overhang.
    Re played an album and it sounded just like it should.
    Just goes to show you need to check and re adjust regularly

    Steve...
    Yep, or at least ya may well find ya gonna have to more often than you think or imagined due to the nature of the beast that is hi-fidelity vinyl replay
    My System:
    Amplification - Sansui AU-alpha 707 DR
    Turntable - Modified Technics SL1210 MK5G
    Mike New precision bearing, bearing base plate, ETP Platter
    Micro Seiki MA-202 tonearm, rewired, hybrid ceramic bearings
    Ortofon Cadenza Black moving coil cartridge - Fritz Gyger S re-tip
    Yannis Tome 423.5 Silver-Litz tonearm cable with KLEI Pure Silver Harmony plugs
    Ebony armboard
    Audio Technica MS-8 Magnesium headshell, Ortofon pure silver headshell leads
    Isonoe Isolation Feet
    Paul Hynes SR7EHD PSU (plus regulator modules), DCSXL pure-silver DC lead with Jaegar low impedance connector
    CDP - Pioneer PD-91
    Speakers - Spendor D7 on Soundcare SuperSpikes
    QED Silver Spiral speaker cable, Airlock plugs - bare wire amp end.
    Mains - Ultra Pure silver plated un-switched socket, Missing link EPS 500 silver plated plugs with Hi-Fi Tuning gold plated silver ceramic 13 amp fuses

  6. #6
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Sheffield - UK

    Posts: 6,243
    I'm Mark.

    Default

    Forgive me if I’m telling you something you already know - but, here goes anyway. The suspension of, all but a select few, moving coil cartridges consists of two components; 1/ a rubber bushing that is just behind the coils and, 2/ a very fine tie wire that is attached to the rear end of the cantilever. This is pulled to a tension and held by a really tiny grub screw. The tension of this wire pulls the whole coil and cantilever assembly against the rubber element and creates most of the tension/spring in the system. Usually, when you read that someone’s cartridge suspension has collapsed it has nothing to do with ageing of the rubber component (which is almost always what is blamed). Instead it is a sign the tie wire has broken or slipped free from the tiny grub screw holding it. Also, it is common to find that slightly rough cueing can cause a little bit of slippage in the wire. Just check this hasn’t happened to you. Look directly at the side of the cartridge as it is lowered onto a record. If the suspension moves more than before, and the cartridge ends up closer to the surface of the record than before, then the tie wire has slipped and needs readjustment.

    100% Analogue

  7. #7
    Join Date: Apr 2011

    Location: London

    Posts: 3,450
    I'm Robert.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by YNWaN View Post
    Forgive me if I’m telling you something you already know - but, here goes anyway. The suspension of, all but a select few, moving coil cartridges consists of two components; 1/ a rubber bushing that is just behind the coils and, 2/ a very fine tie wire that is attached to the rear end of the cantilever. This is pulled to a tension and held by a really tiny grub screw. The tension of this wire pulls the whole coil and cantilever assembly against the rubber element and creates most of the tension/spring in the system. Usually, when you read that someone’s cartridge suspension has collapsed it has nothing to do with ageing of the rubber component (which is almost always what is blamed). Instead it is a sign the tie wire has broken or slipped free from the tiny grub screw holding it. Also, it is common to find that slightly rough cueing can cause a little bit of slippage in the wire. Just check this hasn’t happened to you. Look directly at the side of the cartridge as it is lowered onto a record. If the suspension moves more than before, and the cartridge ends up closer to the surface of the record than before, then the tie wire has slipped and needs readjustment.
    Hi Mark,

    Was aware of the rubber, the wire and a damping system in my Cadenza but not necessariy how it is all fixed together.

    I'm also aware that collapsed suspension is often blamed on the rubber.

    I just cued a couple of times and looked as you've said.

    The small amount of play as the stylus makes contact with the record looks natural / normal to me as in normal play / movement. Body is not looking like it is sitting closer to the record than before.

    I'll look to re-set vta to nail the sweetspot again and then keep an eye on things as well just in case - Thanks
    My System:
    Amplification - Sansui AU-alpha 707 DR
    Turntable - Modified Technics SL1210 MK5G
    Mike New precision bearing, bearing base plate, ETP Platter
    Micro Seiki MA-202 tonearm, rewired, hybrid ceramic bearings
    Ortofon Cadenza Black moving coil cartridge - Fritz Gyger S re-tip
    Yannis Tome 423.5 Silver-Litz tonearm cable with KLEI Pure Silver Harmony plugs
    Ebony armboard
    Audio Technica MS-8 Magnesium headshell, Ortofon pure silver headshell leads
    Isonoe Isolation Feet
    Paul Hynes SR7EHD PSU (plus regulator modules), DCSXL pure-silver DC lead with Jaegar low impedance connector
    CDP - Pioneer PD-91
    Speakers - Spendor D7 on Soundcare SuperSpikes
    QED Silver Spiral speaker cable, Airlock plugs - bare wire amp end.
    Mains - Ultra Pure silver plated un-switched socket, Missing link EPS 500 silver plated plugs with Hi-Fi Tuning gold plated silver ceramic 13 amp fuses

  8. #8
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Sheffield - UK

    Posts: 6,243
    I'm Mark.

    Default

    That all sounds good then Rob. If you have any issues with the cartridge riding warps then this is also a sign of suspension issues. Otherwise, it is as you drscribe - a mixture of the cart settling in, but mostly your ears settling in to the new sound. One thing to note is that almost all replacement styli (in the world of MC cartridge rebuilding) involve really posh/aggressive stylus profiles - these potentially offer a LOT more, but are ultra finicky about setup.

    100% Analogue

  9. #9
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 4,226
    I'm James.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieGong View Post
    Yeah, we've had enough practice.

    The 2M Black was the killer teacher, as in ' there aint no nearly right here'

    The Shibatas are a fussy in general so the Quintet Black and Cadenza Black that followed it werent exactly stroll in the park, but not quite the always 'fatigued to death' experince of the 2MB

    The Frtiz Gyger S is another sophisticated profile that requires careful set up but I as you say, I know what I'm listening for and have a couple of tracks I use.

    Still hate having to re-go there. I kind of just wish once done it was done but hey ho - life, or should I say hifi / vinyl replay eh
    Interesting Rob. When I first went back to vinyl I asked a mate to play me something on his deck, not having heard a record player for 25 years, as he lowered the needle he said that the set up was bit off that day and he had not nailed it.

    I spent the last 4 years learning why and what he meant by this nailing the 2M Black. As a matter of course I often just check VTF and VTA and overhang to keep it sweet but other factors such as room temperature and humidity also make a difference. Unfortunately the mechanical analogue nature of a cartridge is as I have found affected by so many factors it is a wonder it sounds good all of the time. Everything wears, dust enters the inner parts eventually and we then wonder why it does not sound as sweet as when we first set it up.

    Personally I like the challenge and the tinkering but I know a lot of those digital boys who just scroll down an iPad hate it!
    VPI Scout 1.1 - Ortofon 2M Black - Croft 25R+ - Croft Series 7 - Spendor SP2

  10. #10
    Join Date: Apr 2011

    Location: London

    Posts: 3,450
    I'm Robert.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Interesting Rob. When I first went back to vinyl I asked a mate to play me something on his deck, not having heard a record player for 25 years, as he lowered the needle he said that the set up was bit off that day and he had not nailed it.

    I spent the last 4 years learning why and what he meant by this nailing the 2M Black. As a matter of course I often just check VTF and VTA and overhang to keep it sweet but other factors such as room temperature and humidity also make a difference. Unfortunately the mechanical analogue nature of a cartridge is as I have found affected by so many factors it is a wonder it sounds good all of the time. Everything wears, dust enters the inner parts eventually and we then wonder why it does not sound as sweet as when we first set it up.

    Personally I like the challenge and the tinkering but I know a lot of those digital boys who just scroll down an iPad hate it!
    Spot on Jimbo,

    It really isnt for everyone for said reasons.

    For me, you and many others though, there is nothing like it once nailed, the listening pleasure is immense, thrilling and very very satisfying, hence we endure and persevere
    Last edited by RobbieGong; 05-01-2019 at 11:23.
    My System:
    Amplification - Sansui AU-alpha 707 DR
    Turntable - Modified Technics SL1210 MK5G
    Mike New precision bearing, bearing base plate, ETP Platter
    Micro Seiki MA-202 tonearm, rewired, hybrid ceramic bearings
    Ortofon Cadenza Black moving coil cartridge - Fritz Gyger S re-tip
    Yannis Tome 423.5 Silver-Litz tonearm cable with KLEI Pure Silver Harmony plugs
    Ebony armboard
    Audio Technica MS-8 Magnesium headshell, Ortofon pure silver headshell leads
    Isonoe Isolation Feet
    Paul Hynes SR7EHD PSU (plus regulator modules), DCSXL pure-silver DC lead with Jaegar low impedance connector
    CDP - Pioneer PD-91
    Speakers - Spendor D7 on Soundcare SuperSpikes
    QED Silver Spiral speaker cable, Airlock plugs - bare wire amp end.
    Mains - Ultra Pure silver plated un-switched socket, Missing link EPS 500 silver plated plugs with Hi-Fi Tuning gold plated silver ceramic 13 amp fuses

+ Reply to Thread



 

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •