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[KWJ]

More than happy to contribute been a member for a very short time but really enjoy this forum
Thanks to everyone that make AoS possible

[Macca]

Because I am entirely unclear where the money I could invest would be going, .

It's a donation not an investment and it has been made quite clear where it is going.

[Tim]

Thanks for all of the varied responses.

I do however take exception to my note being described as either a wind up or f***ing rude. The only thing rude was those statements.

Whilst I am no longer a prolific poster on this forum, due to both personal circumstances, I now have a 1 year old son who takes priority, and I favor another forum, i do keep an eye on this forum and as I do a number of others.

I felt I was well within my right as a member of this forum to request the information that I have and am content with some of the responses.

Because I am entirely unclear where the money I could invest would be going, I am afraid I won't contribute, but I do wish the forum well and will continue to look in from time to time.

Playing devils advocate Paul and maybe you didn't intend it to, but your questioning seemed a tad ungracious and confrontational. Totally correct to ask yes, but perhaps it could have been worded a little more tactfully, hence some of the responses you received. I raised an eyebrow myself to be honest.

It's voluntary, do it or don't do it, up to you and as Martin says it's not an investment. I donate to Wikipedia every-year, I don't know exactly where that money goes, but one has to have a little trust if we want these services to continue

[Marco]

Hi Paul,

I felt I was well within my right as a member of this forum to request the information that I have and am content with some of the responses.

Because I am entirely unclear where the money I could invest would be going, I am afraid I won't contribute, but I do wish the forum well and will continue to look in from time to time.

As for the first bit, I entirely agree and hope that you found my response, in that respect, satisfactory. Members are of course entitled to, within reason, offer their opinions on your input.

In terms of the last bit, that's entirely your decision. However, I'm at a loss as to how I could've been any clearer where your donation would be going, short of providing bank statements?

The main cost involves paying the company concerned to maintain our database, which is on-going and increasing, as the forum grows in size, and especially when faults occur. The rest goes on paying VBulletin for the software used to run the forum. And anything left over is reinvested in the site at a later stage, or when unexpected costs arise, and also to fund future VB upgrades.

Therefore, in terms of any lack of clarity, I think you're being somewhat unreasonable. Plus, as Martin has mentioned, I think you're also struggling to differentiate between an investment and a donation.

Furthermore, as others have said, chipping in a fiver or tenner as thanks for the 'entertainment' alone that this place provides, and which is appreciated by regulars, is considered as being good value. That's another valid way of looking at donations, other than simply representing funds received towards the site's running costs, and in which case don't need justifying.

Anyway, you've made your decision, which of course I respect

Marco.

[Marco]

More than happy to contribute been a member for a very short time but really enjoy this forum
Thanks to everyone that make AoS possible

Thanks, Kevin. It's always great receiving such support and positive feedback, especially from new members, which shows that we're doing something right!

Marco.

[pjdowns]

Playing devils advocate Paul and maybe you didn't intend it to, but your questioning seemed a tad ungracious and confrontational. Totally correct to ask yes, but perhaps it could have been worded a little more tactfully, hence some of the responses you received. I raised an eyebrow myself to be honest.

It's voluntary, do it or don't do it, up to you and as Martin says it's not an investment. I donate to Wikipedia every-year, I don't know exactly where that money goes, but one has to have a little trust if we want these services to continue

Fair enough, Tim, it was not in anyway meant in that way.

[pjdowns]

Hi Paul,



As for the first bit, I entirely agree and hope that you found my response, in that respect, satisfactory. Members are of course entitled to, within reason, offer their opinions on your input.

In terms of the last bit, that's entirely your decision. However, I'm at a loss as to how I could've been any clearer where your donation would be going, short of providing bank statements?

The main cost involves paying the company concerned to maintain our database, which is on-going and increasing, as the forum grows, and especially when faults occur. The rest goes on paying VBulletin for the software used to run the forum. And anything left over is reinvested in the site at a later stage, or when unexpected costs arise, and also to fund future VB upgrades.

Therefore, in terms of any lack of clarity, I think you're being somewhat unreasonable. Plus, as Martin has mentioned, I think you're also struggling to differentiate between an investment and a donation.

Plus, as others have said, chipping in a fiver or tenner as thanks for the 'entertainment' alone that this place provides, and which is appreciated by regulars, is considered as being good value. That's another valid way of looking at donations, other than simply representing funds received towards the site's running costs, and in which case don't need justifying.

Anyway, you've made your decision, which of course I respect

Marco.

Thanks Marco. I guess my point was that whilst I know it is not cheap to run a forum, it is equally not terribly expensive dependent on what software/technical support you chose to use, and as you already have adds and dealer contributions, I struggle to understand what the extra money is required for. Equally, I don't run the forum, and don't know the finer details so am happy to step out of the conversation.

[Clive]

I'm fine with contributing; I suppose it would be helpful to understand what sort of order of magnitude the costs of running the forum, ie £1k, £10k or whatever. Certainly it would be rude to ask for a breakdown and I'm sure it would open a can of worms as someone would challenge it. I only suggest some form of wide range is given for the costs as this might help contributors decide how much to contribute.

[dantheman91]

Made a small donation i have been here for a long time now and Marco and the team do a fantastic job with keeping things running...

Keep up the great work guys..

[Marco]

Hi Paul,

Thanks Marco. I guess my point was that whilst I know it is not cheap to run a forum, it is equally not terribly expensive dependent on what software/technical support you chose to use, and as you already have adds and dealer contributions, I struggle to understand what the extra money is required for.

No problem, but surely you must accept that if additional funding weren't required, I wouldn't have the need to address it? As Tim has said, there has to exist a level of trust.

The software/technical support we employ isn't cheap because we pay for dedicated personnel to manage our database, 24/7. Therefore, should the site go down, due to a fault or some other unforeseen issue (which has happened three times this year so far, the additional costs of resolving which weren't budgeted for), then no matter what time it is, we can raise a ticket and get it fixed, ASAP!

In that respect, we're very happy with the service we receive (indeed I expect certain standards here, in order to maintain sustained availability of the forum for members, with minimal downtime), so have no desire to downgrade to something cheaper, but in that respect, worse.

The ads at their current level of visibility just about make up the shortfall in income from Skimlinks, so that issue is fortunately now almost resolved, but of course any income generated from such cannot be *guaranteed*, unfortunately in the same way as our costs!

Some days there is next to no income produced, depending on the number of clicks on said ads, which is how that income is generated, and other days it's better. However, I need to ensure that there is sufficient cleared funds available every month, in order to pay the site's running costs (and anything unexpected that crops up), to prevent me from being too much out of pocket at any given time (we'll get to that in a minute).

...which brings us neatly onto dealer contributions. These cannot be guaranteed either, because dealers come and go, and many after paying for their first year, fail to renew again (for various reasons), and of course that also presumes you can get the money off those who do, when it's due That's another story, though!

There has also been a general downturn in the number of members of the trade joining the forum to advertise, therefore combined with the above, as already explained, is also another reason for the shortfall in income we've experienced recently.

Plus, there is also the question of cash flow. It's often the case that bills need to be paid before the necessary funds have arrived, and that applies especially to those from trade fees, as you can only ask someone to pay to renew their account, when their old one has expired...

Therefore, it comes down to timing, and if bills arrive when no-one, or few traders are due to renew their accounts, then I can be left out of pocket for weeks, sometime months, until someone renews and I'm reimbursed. The bills, however, still have to be paid in the meantime, regardless!

Lastly, as I've already stated, I'm *very focused* on AoS being entirely self-funding, and so will do whatever is necessary to enure that happens. Anyway, these are things no-one thinks about, or would know, unless you've run a forum such as this, but whilst we're at it, I thought it would be of interest to everyone, not just you, to outline them

Marco.