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Thread: Denon DL-S1 MC cartridge

  1. #111
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,778
    I'm Martin.

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    Is there any such thing as 'ideal' gain? if there is not enough gain it will be obvious, if there is too much gain it will be obvious. Otherwise it won't make a blind bit of difference to the sound quality.

    At least that's how it works for everything else, maybe phono cartridges are different in a way I don't understand?
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  2. #112
    Bigman80 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post
    No problem.

    The spec'd output from these two cartridges (Ortofon Kb and Denon DL S1) is vastly different.
    .47 mV vs. .15 mV. They have grossly different gain requirements, probably in the range of 8-10 dB with most "normal" systems. Just my opinion, but it's inconceivable that a gain level that would be ideal with one would be at all close to working well with the other.

    While I admire the work you put in to make the comparison, under the circumstances I think it's pretty hard to draw any conclusion with respect to the overall quality of either cartridge though. A pretty good chance that one of these cartridges was severely handicapped with respect to proper matching to the phono stage; the best case scenario would be that they were both equally mismatched. Either way, not a great situation unfortunately.
    That's a fair comment but I disagree.

    I don't believe that either or both cartridges were handicapped by the phonostage. That's not because I'm precious about it either.

    If the phonostage had a set loading and was of standard gain levels, then yes I'd agree with you but I have ultimate flexibility in loading. The loading was set, via loading plugs to get the recommended value (can't remember the figure now!) and then I played around with it until I felt it sounded at its best too.

    Gain was no issue. It isn't standard levels which has allowed me to successfully try multiple low output cartridges. Denon 304, AT-ART7 plus others, have been here and been adequately served.

    The DL-S1 just wasn't to my taste.

    Also, when I hear things like "it didn't sing until I bought......" I wonder why a company would make a product that sounds shit or less than optimal with the majority of standard phonostages. Not gonna sell many like that are they!

    If there's a level of synergy obtained between the DL-S1 and the AU-S1, I'll accept that but no, I'm not having it that Denon, a world leading company at that time, would be that daft to make it to only "sing" with its SUT.

    You're more than welcome to pop in and judge the quality of vinyl replay here.

  3. #113
    Bigman80 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Is there any such thing as 'ideal' gain? if there is not enough gain it will be obvious, if there is too much gain it will be obvious. Otherwise it won't make a blind bit of difference to the sound quality.

    At least that's how it works for everything else, maybe phono cartridges are different in a way I don't understand?
    No, I think your right. There was a phonostage here, the Jolida JD9 which had adjustable gain. I had it too high and it was distorted. I had it too low, it was lifeless. I spent a fair bit of time F@cking about with that and even though I was frustrated at the time, I did get the experience of when a cartridge isn't being served well enough.

    The Bigbottle (phonostage) was not an issue. I'd have said of it was.

  4. #114
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: The Black Country

    Posts: 6,089
    I'm Alan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post
    A pretty good chance that one of these cartridges was severely handicapped with respect to proper matching to the phono stage; the best case scenario would be that they were both equally mismatched.
    I disagree there was any mismatch that could affect the performance, even though the output levels between the two varied by 10dB.
    The gain of the Bigbottle is around the 68dB mark so plenty for low output cartridges.
    It also has a large headroom being valve based, so is equally suitable for higher output cartridges.

  5. #115
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Is there any such thing as 'ideal' gain? if there is not enough gain it will be obvious, if there is too much gain it will be obvious. Otherwise it won't make a blind bit of difference to the sound quality.
    In theory, yes. In practice, however, it's a little different.

    With low-output MCs, there's always a sweet spot, where the combination of correct loading and gain result in the sound 'snapping into focus' - and when you've achieved that, you'll hear it!

    Also, once you hear how music sounds when things are optimised in that way, anything less than that is quite obviously sonically substandard.

    I do know where Blake's coming from though, in that if the gain levels weren't accurately matched between both cartridges (and I can't comment if that was the case or not) then it would potentially result in the cartridge with more output sounding livelier/punchier/fuller and more dynamic than its lower output counterpart.

    However, that aside, it's clear to me that Oliver has a pretty firm handle on the sound/musical presentation of both the KB and DL-S1, the fundamentals of which no amount of level-matching would change, and so in that respect he's no doubt made the correct choice for him

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  6. #116
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigman80 View Post
    The DL-S1 just wasn't to my taste.
    Lol, I thought you *really liked* it, but ultimately preferred the KB? If so, that's quite different from "The DL-S1 wasn't to my taste", which suggests that you didn't like it, so which is it, daftee?

    If there's a level of synergy obtained between the DL-S1 and the AU-S1, I'll accept that but no, I'm not having it that Denon, a world leading company at that time, would be that daft to make it to only "sing" with its SUT.
    Again, as I discussed on the DL-103 thread, it comes down to 'sounding good' versus optimised, and in that respect there's no doubt that the AU-S1 optimises the sound of the DL-S1 in a way that simply isn't achievable without it.

    That said, we're probably talking about that last 5-10% of 'magic', which such optimising brings, but which won't make the sound if the cartridge 'broken' without it.

    After all, I used the DL-S1, to great effect, without an AU-S1, resulting in the likes of Macca and Jimbo positively raving about its sound at NEBO, so there's no doubt that the DL-S1 can still sound great without its partnering SUT.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  7. #117
    Bigman80 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Lol, I thought you *really liked* it, but ultimately preferred the KB? If so, that's quite different from "The DL-S1 wasn't to my taste", which suggests you didn't like it, so which is it, daftee?



    Again, as I discussed on the DL-103 thread, it comes down to 'sounding good' versus optimised, and in that respect there's no doubt that the AU-S1 optimises the sound of the DL-S1 in a way that simply isn't achievable without it.

    That said, we're probably talking about that last 5-10% of 'magic', which such optimising brings, but which won't make the sound if the cartridge 'broken' without it.

    After all, I used the DL-S1, to great effect, without an AU-S1, resulting in the likes of Macca and Jimbo positively raving about its sound at NEBO, so there's no doubt that the DL-S1 can still sound great without its partnering SUT.

    Marco.
    I did *really like it* but ultimately the Kb was more to my taste/preferable/worked better in my system/achieved better synergy/floated my boat/whet my appetite

    Pick one

  8. #118
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Cool... Then I'd have written (in post #112): 'I loved the DL-S1, but ultimately the KB was more to my taste'. Those words sum up the feelings you've expressed above rather more accurately

    It's a question of semantics....

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  9. #119
    Bigman80 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Cool... Then I'd have written (in post #112): 'I loved the DL-S1, but ultimately the KB was more to my taste'. Those words sum up the feelings you've expressed above rather more accurately

    It's a question of semantics....

    Marco.
    I see what you're saying.

  10. #120
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Cool beans... The AT OC-9 "isn't to my taste" [an understatement, lol], so I'm sure you feel rather differently about the DL-S1

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


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