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Thread: Denon DL-S1 MC cartridge

  1. #131
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

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    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    Once again, I disagree. The "optimal setting for gain" is chosen arbitrarily to give a balance between headroom and signal-to-noise ratio.
    Yes that might be the case technically, but your ears can (and often do) tell you something quite different!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  2. #132
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    No, there are no optimal settings. You can improve the signal-to-noise ratio, but that degrades the distortion. You can reduce the distortion, but that degrades the signal-to-noise ratio. You have to balance the two and find an acceptable compromise between two conflicting requirements. You cannot optimise the signal-to-noise ratio, then optimise distortion as if they were two separate things. They're not.
    I'm talking about the "sweet spot", as in that perceived by your own ears, which as Blake is saying, is determined by how good you think the sound is, not judged by any set of measurements. It is a wholly subjective assessment.

    As I've said, optimal gain (judged subjectively) is as responsible for one successfully hitting that "sweet spot", just as much as subjectively with VTF, VTA or any other important parameters relating to vinyl replay. That's why it helps to have as much adjustment available as possible, on phono stages and/or head amps, to facilitate the process.

    And it makes a BIG difference to SQ, when you hit that spot! Oh, and which you indeed may never do, if relying solely on measurements...

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  3. #133
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: W Lothian

    Posts: 99,005
    I'm Grant.

    Default Denon DL-S1 MC cartridge

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I'm talking about the "sweet spot", as in that perceived by your own ears, which as Blake is saying, is determined by how good you think the sound is, not judged by any set of measurements. It is a wholly subjective assessment.

    As I've said, optimal gain (judged subjectively) is as responsible for one successfully hitting that "sweet spot", just as much as subjectively with VTF, VTA or any other important parameters relating to vinyl replay. That's why it helps to have as much adjustment available as possible, on phono stages and/or head amps, to facilitate the process.

    And it makes a BIG difference to SQ, when you hit that spot! Oh, and which you may never do, if relying solely on measurements...

    Marco.
    Agree with you on the gain thing wholeheartedly. Low gain is often responsible for poor replay. As can too much
    Last edited by struth; 17-10-2018 at 16:04.
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  4. #134
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    That's your opinion. It isn't mine, nor does it fit any accepted engineering practice. I think it's time to agree to differ.
    Lol... I'm afraid that there's a lot more to audio, especially with optimising vinyl replay, than simply accepted engineering practice!

    Much of it comes simply from experience [gut instincts and judgement] and knowing what to listen for. Plus how to possibly put it right, if you think it sounds wrong - none of which you'll learn from a textbook.

    Anyway, fair enough, we'll agree to disagree

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  5. #135
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Lol - I'm not (intentionally) patronising anyone; I'm simply saying what I think and expressing an honest opinion, so no offence intended

    However, the basic fact remains if something sounds subjectively better to someone, then for them it *is* subjectively better [no-one can dispute that] - and that applies as much with the 'optimal' setting of gain, for vinyl replay, as it does with anything else in audio.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  6. #136
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: London, Canada

    Posts: 189
    I'm Blake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    BTW, it may be worth mentioning that blake's phonostage is quite unusual and for MC cartridges uses a current gain amplifier. Exactly how the gain adjustment pots on the front panel work isn't clear, but any change in perceived sound quality may well be due to a change in some parameter other than gain.
    True, but my experience is also consistent with more traditional phono stages I've had in the past. I once ordered a customized (for gain) stage that was delivered unfortunately with incorrect gain. Short by about 5 dB. This with a .2 mV cartridge. Could I listen to my system? Yes. Did it sound good? No, it was pretty much unlistenable, at least by what I consider to be any reasonable standards with decent hardware and software. Once the phono stage was returned and modified with the correct gain that I'd ordered, everything was fine.

    On the other hand, I've also run a 1.2 mV cartridge with my Aqvox, which unfortunately provided an excess of gain for that cartridge, about 5-6 dB. Actually did not sound bad, but substituting it with a very similar cartridge with an output much more amenable to the Aqvox and then dialing in/adjusting the gain resulted in grossly superior sound.

    Once again, we are talking about a comparison here with two very low output cartridges in which one cartridge ideally requires 10 dB more gain than the other to work optimally. In my experience this is simply too massive a range to suggest that both cartridges would be even close to being optimized to hear what they are capable of. I could buy into a performance evaluation where the necessary gain range with a fixed gain stage was much more limited, perhaps in the 3-4 dB range. But we don't have that here. It's possible that one or the other was optimized, or close to being optimized depending on their specific gain requirements, or it's possible that they were both compromised. Either situation is not great.

    But yes, we will probably have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

  7. #137
    Bigman80 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post
    True, but my experience is also consistent with more traditional phono stages I've had in the past. I once ordered a customized (for gain) stage that was delivered unfortunately with incorrect gain. Short by about 5 dB. This with a .2 mV cartridge. Could I listen to my system? Yes. Did it sound good? No, it was pretty much unlistenable, at least by what I consider to be any reasonable standards with decent hardware and software. Once the phono stage was returned and modified with the correct gain that I'd ordered, everything was fine.

    On the other hand, I've also run a 1.2 mV cartridge with my Aqvox, which unfortunately provided an excess of gain for that cartridge, about 5-6 dB. Actually did not sound bad, but substituting it with a very similar cartridge with an output much more amenable to the Aqvox and then dialing in/adjusting the gain resulted in grossly superior sound.

    Once again, we are talking about a comparison here with two very low output cartridges in which one cartridge ideally requires 10 dB more gain than the other to work optimally. In my experience this is simply too massive a range to suggest that both cartridges would be even close to being optimized to hear what they are capable of. I could buy into a performance evaluation where the necessary gain range with a fixed gain stage was much more limited, perhaps in the 3-4 dB range. But we don't have that here. It's possible that one or the other was optimized, or close to being optimized depending on their specific gain requirements, or it's possible that they were both compromised. Either situation is not great.

    But yes, we will probably have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.
    Regardless of whether the setup is 'optimal' for the DL-S1 or not, the system wasn't built around the Kb either.

    Both cartridges had an equal playing field. Loading was done correctly (wish I'd kept the notes) and the setup was perfect.

    If the DL-S1 didn't do what it's supposed to, how did our resident Denon guru (Marco) manage to concur with my findings? His system was 'optimised' for the Denon so surely if it wasnt able to perform in the conditions here, the only explaination is that I read Marcos mind!!!!

    There's no way I'd swap my phonostage so if any cartridge came here and didn't perform, it's the cartridge that's on its way, not he phonostage. I also have no time for SUTs and all that F#cking matching nonsense. A solid headamp or built in thing like my phonostage has does a better job than anything else I've tried.

    I think the bigger issue is the lack of acceptance that a lowly () Kontrapunkt b was preferred to the almighty DL-S1.

    "Blame the equipment for the DL-S1 being unable to oust the incumbent cartridge!!!"

    Any piece of kit that NEEDS some special SUT or HA to perform like some mythical beast, isn't going to make it here.

  8. #138
    Join Date: May 2012

    Location: Toulouse, France

    Posts: 6,562
    I'm Kevin.

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    Wow, loads of pages to say that Oli preferred the KB over the Denon.
    It’s his ears, his system and his music to make his choice. He preferred one and not the other.

    A bit like me preferring my Asus sound card as opposed to the very popular Caiman SEG. It’s not normal, but who cares?
    Kevin

    Too busy enjoying the music....

    European loan coordinator for Graham Slee HiFi system components..

  9. #139
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,786
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    Or you could change things at random and in the process change more than you realised, then claim the improvement is due to thing you think you changed.
    .
    Yes absolutely. There's a lot of variables going on at once in a hi-fi system (not to mention the human brain), it's unwise to draw definite conclusions as to cause and effect without some serious technical investigation. Especially when the reason you have decided upon makes no sense when you consider how the thing actually works.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  10. #140
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,786
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Really? You're a better man than me.

    https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_level.php?lvl=0.1
    Not saying I can, but 0.1db is considered the threshold. Below it's safe to say no one can perceive it.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

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