Denon DL-S1 MC cartridge

[montesquieu]

Coming late into this but it just reinforces in my mind the superiority (ymmv yada yada) of my preferred approach of using multi-tap step-up transformers that allow for flexibility in cartridge gain - indeed I would argue that something along these lines is essential if you have a even a modest cartridge collection intended to optimise replay of different stereo and mono LPs of different eras or even genres. (Not important to some of course but utterly essential to others).

I think I mentioned in my review of Miyajima step-ups the joys of running in the same evening from a 2 ohm 0.18 Ikeda cartridge to a 100 ohm 1.5mV Ortofon CG25 (values at the cartridge coil) - this is all about being able to find a satisfactory match between cartridge and phono stage that optimises the capability of both.

Interestingly the EAR 912 I use as a phono preamp not only has four internal SUT settings (labelled 3, 6, 12 and 40 ohms but more accurately representing different step-up ratios - SUTs are generally far more forgiving in terms of precise matching of measured values than head amps), but also an interstage transformer between phono stage and preamp, with signal visually represented by VU meters, so that overall gain can be visually matched to keep things at appropriate levels - avoiding either overload or hiss from insufficient gain (though it's famously very quiet anyway for a valve unit).

It may be my imagination (which, essentially, is the medium we all listen through anyway - imagination is at the heart of, for example, the auditory feat of hearing a 3D soundstage) but I do generally feel the sound quality is at its best when the VU meters are also telling me the gain structure is optimal.

[Macca]

Hearing a 3d soundstage isn't a product of imagination - the engineer has done that deliberately, it's what you are supposed to hear.

We may not be able to measure it on replay but if you could have a look at the desk you would see the settings of the panning and levels of the individual tracks in the mix designed to give that effect.

[Bigman80]

Coming late into this but it just reinforces in my mind the superiority (ymmv yada yada) of my preferred approach of using multi-tap step-up transformers that allow for flexibility in cartridge gain - indeed I would argue that something along these lines is essential if you have a even a modest cartridge collection intended to optimise replay of different stereo and mono LPs of different eras or even genres. (Not important to some of course but utterly essential to others).

I think I mentioned in my review of Miyajima step-ups the joys of running in the same evening from a 2 ohm 0.18 Ikeda cartridge to a 100 ohm 1.5mV Ortofon CG25 (values at the cartridge coil) - this is all about being able to find a satisfactory match between cartridge and phono stage that optimises the capability of both.

Interestingly the EAR 912 I use as a phono preamp not only has four internal SUT settings (labelled 3, 6, 12 and 40 ohms but more accurately representing different step-up ratios - SUTs are generally far more forgiving in terms of precise matching of measured values than head amps), but also an interstage transformer between phono stage and preamp, with signal visually represented by VU meters, so that overall gain can be visually matched to keep things at appropriate levels - avoiding either overload or hiss from insufficient gain (though it's famously very quiet anyway for a valve unit).

It may be my imagination (which, essentially, is the medium we all listen through anyway - imagination is at the heart of, for example, the auditory feat of hearing a 3D soundstage) but I do generally feel the sound quality is at its best when the VU meters are also telling me the gain structure is optimal.

I can accept that if you are going to run multiple (very) special and (very) expensive cartridges like the ones you do, Tom, that it makes sense to have all the gain, capacitance and loading options available to you.

The thing is, the DL-S1 isn't as far off the beaten track as folk would like to believe. It's not that particularly difficult to get the best out of the cartridge. What I object to and is the theory that it can only perform to its full potential with a specific SUT.

I know you have some fine pieces Tom, do you imagine one of your SUTs could get the DL-S1 to perform? I do.

It's not a cartridge I was going to dissolve the system for. Had it blown me away, them yes, I'd have gone after the fabled matching SUT.

[montesquieu]

It’s true that SUTs can be expensive but for me the results justify it.

I’m 100% sure I could find an appropriate setting for the Denon on both the EAR and the Miyajima ETR-Stereo.

Personally though - from experience of what I know I like having bought and sold on literally dozens of cartridges over the years - I have a pretty good idea that the Denon wouldn’t be to my taste. The Ortofon on the other hand I rate and feel pretty sure I would like - Ive heard many models from the Kontrapunkt and later Cadenza series - I owned a Jubilee myself - and they have all had something I enjoy going for them. I have a particular soft spot for the Cadenza Blue.

Would 100% correct settings sell me on the Denon? Personally I’m skeptical. It’s more likely to leave me admiring some aspects of what it does rather than wanting to own it. But never say never, I guess.

Neither cartridge would be ideal in my high mass arm/low compliance cartridge/idler step so its kind of academic really from my perspective.

[Bigman80]

It’s true that SUTs can be expensive but for me the results justify it.

I’m 100% sure I could find an appropriate setting for the Denon on both the EAR and the Miyajima ETR-Stereo.

Personally though - from experience of what I know I like having bought and sold on literally dozens of cartridges over the years - I have a pretty good idea that the Denon wouldn’t be to my taste. The Ortofon on the other hand I rate and feel pretty sure I would like - Ive heard many models from the Kontrapunkt and later Cadenza series - I owned a Jubilee myself - and they have all had something I enjoy going for them. I have a particular soft spot for the Cadenza Blue.

Would 100% correct settings sell me on the Denon? Personally I’m skeptical. It’s more likely to leave me admiring some aspects of what it does rather than wanting to own it. But never say never, I guess.

Neither cartridge would be ideal in my high mass arm/low compliance cartridge/idler step so its kind of academic really from my perspective.

"Would 100% correct settings sell me on the Denon? Personally I’m skeptical. It’s more likely to leave me admiring some aspects of what it does rather than wanting to own it."

That's how I feel about it. Whether I had the absolute optimum setting or not, it didnt make me think i wanted to build a setup around it. I don't believe I'd feel differently either way.

[nickbaba]

Aw you guys are not exactly filling me with confidence about my latest purchase...

Still didn't have a chance to hear it yet, got some listening time booked for the weekend hopefully. I guess we'll see.

[Bigman80]

Aw you guys are not exactly filling me with confidence about my latest purchase...

Still didn't have a chance to hear it yet, got some listening time booked for the weekend hopefully. I guess we'll see.

Sorry mate, I'm afraid the thread has descended into a bit of a downer on the DL-S1.

That wasn't my feeling and still isn't. It's a really good cart. If you to like the DL103SA you are sure to love DL-S1. I have no doubt.

Whenever someone goes against the grain, as I have, there becomes an instant interrogation into why. It's irrelevant, you will hear it and make up your own mind, as i did.

Marco commented that your system will likely be better placed to enjoy this cartridge. He would know, being the Denon Guru.

[Mike Reed]

And you've since lost the 'urge'

Marco.

Nope. Just the URGEncy.

[Mike Reed]

Interestingly the EAR 912 I use as a phono preamp not only has four internal SUT settings (labelled 3, 6, 12 and 40 ohms but more accurately representing different step-up ratios - SUTs are generally far more forgiving in terms of precise matching of measured values than head amps), but also an interstage transformer between phono stage and preamp, with signal visually represented by VU meters, so that overall gain can be visually matched to keep things at appropriate levels - avoiding either overload or hiss from insufficient gain (though it's famously very quiet anyway for a valve unit).

It may be my imagination (which, essentially, is the medium we all listen through anyway - imagination is at the heart of, for example, the auditory feat of hearing a 3D soundstage) but I do generally feel the sound quality is at its best when the VU meters are also telling me the gain structure is optimal.

I agree, and as Hugo and others pointed out to me at my bake-off on Saturday, I have maybe become a little too addicted to the meters !

[Marco]

Whenever someone goes against the grain, as I have, there becomes an instant interrogation into why. It's irrelevant, you will hear it and make up your own mind, as i did.

Marco commented that your system will likely be better placed to enjoy this cartridge. He would know, being the Denon Guru.

Firstly, you should never be subjected to "interrogation" by anyone, simply for coming to a decision that may have upset some people's sensibilities... And I don't think you have, certainly by anyone who was surprised that you preferred the KB to the Denon, but rather from others who may have considered you didn't do enough to allow the DL-S1 to shine.

I don't buy that at all and disagree, as I ran the DL-S1 through a fixed gain/fixed loading MM phono stage and MC head amp, and it sounded superb, without it being nannied by an 'optimal' SUT and/or a variable-gain phono stage.

Do I think that an AU-S1 would've had the potential to make it perform even better? Yes, absolutely (as I know from experience how well Denon's SUTs and cartridges gel together), but it's not *essential* in order for the cartridge to be enjoyed to a high standard.

So to be honest Ollie, I wouldn't give a monkeys what anyone thinks. You've made your own informed and carefully considered decision on the matter, which you're entitled to, and which I fully respect, and that should be an end to the matter.

And yes, I have no doubt that Nick will love the DL-S1 and be very happy that he bought it, primarily because he's probably more attuned to liking the Denon sound, and has a system geared up to allow him to do that

Marco.