Denon DL-S1 MC cartridge

[Bigman80]

The difference between the two cartridges is 10dB. The Denon requires 10dB more gain from the phonostage to get the same signal level as the Ortofon.

With not enough gain the volume control will need turning up more and the signal-to-noise ratio may be compromised. With too much gain there's a chance of distortion. Having said that, there should be quite a wide acceptable range between the problematic extremes. Until you hit distortion - or hiss at the other extreme - there should be no change in sound quality with different gains.
As for load impedance... that's a grey area


I refer the right honourable gentleman to my previous answer

Gain was no issue. Believe me, this phonostage is capable.

[Marco]

I refer the right honourable gentleman to my previous answer

Lol, well you said:

With not enough gain the volume control will need turning up more and the signal-to-noise ratio may be compromised. With too much gain there's a chance of distortion.

...which I fully agree with. So surely, if the gain is incorrect, those are valid reasons for a degradation in sound quality?

Marco.

[Barry]

...which I fully agree with. So surely, if the gain is incorrect, those are valid reasons for a degradation in sound quality?

Marco.

But with most systems there will be sufficient latitude between the two extremes cited.

[Marco]

And what if there isn't - what happens in instances when that's not the case?

Marco.

[blake]

The difference between the two cartridges is 10dB. The Denon requires 10dB more gain from the phonostage to get the same signal level as the Ortofon.

With not enough gain the volume control will need turning up more and the signal-to-noise ratio may be compromised. With too much gain there's a chance of distortion. Having said that, there should be quite a wide acceptable range between the problematic extremes. Until you hit distortion - or hiss at the other extreme - there should be no change in sound quality with different gains.
As for load impedance... that's a grey area


I refer the right honourable gentleman to my previous answer

Could not agree with you more.

It is essentially about the signal to noise ratio being compromised. I've run a phono stage with infinitely variable gain (as in fully adjustable within the entire gain range) between 55-75 dB for about 12 years now with various Moving Coil cartridges with outputs between .20 and 1.2 mV. Having that kind of control over gain is very different than having the ability to adjust in increments of 3-5 dB or more. It will show your ears truly how important gain optimization is in terms of realizing the full potential of a good cartridge.

As mentioned previously, a tube phono stage will be less prone to overload, or overload more gracefully than a solid state stage on average, all things being equal. But gain is gain with respect to optimizing the signal to noise ratio which will (at least in my experience) have a significant effect on sound.

I currently run two cartridges, one spec'd by the manufacturer at .35 mV (in reality it may output slightly more or less than that-this one was not individually tested with that data provided by the manufacturer-in my experience with data provided on most individually tested units they actually output more than manufacturer stated output) and the other spec'd at .18 mV but provided with test data on that specific cartridge that shows an actual output of .25 mV.

In my system, which is not particularly unusual (ie. no passive preamp, no ultra high efficiency speakers, etc.) even these cartridges have very different gain requirements to sound their best. For example, in this situation, I run the lower output cartridge with 5.25 dB more gain than the higher output cartridge. In theory and in a perfect world I should be running with a 3 dB difference; my gut feeling is that the .35 mV spec'd cartridge actually has a slightly higher output.

The stated output between the two cartridges mentioned here-the Denon and Ortofon-is huge. I've found (with infinitely adjustable gain) that the real sweet spot with low output MC's is very narrow: certainly within 1-2 dB and probably narrower than that at the risk of sounding heretical. But one will never know that unless they have the ability to adjust gain infinitely or in very tiny increments in any given system.

It is entirely about the signal to noise ratio. Move one way or the other (too much or too little gain) and it is not optimized and the noise is amplified more than the signal. When you start hearing more noise and less signal, you're not hearing the cartridge at its best. It cannot be avoided.

And, as i stated before, the gain requirements for these two cartridges are really vastly different.

All in my opinion (as I mentioned earlier) of course with the usual "your mileage may vary" disclaimer.

[blake]

Maybe you misunderstood me - I was stating the exact opposite of your opinion.


How are you measuring gain to 1/100th of a decibel?

No, my opinion is the opposite of yours. If the signal-to-noise ratio is so poor that hiss is audible the hiss is an unwanted addition but it doesn't really affect the signal and the sound quality - it's just an added annoyance.

What I'm saying is that with fully adjustable gain it is apparent that there is a lot more to signal to noise than hiss being audible. That very small increases or decreases in gain result in qualitative differences in sound quality.

Think of it this way: there will be an optimal setting for gain. There has to be. Once you move away from that in either direction signal will be obscured by noise.

I'm not "measuring gain" per se. My phono preamp is an Aqvox Phono 2 CI with full range gain pots on the front of the phono stage. I can hear very clear changes in sound quality with adjustments of less than 1 dB with any of the cartridges I've used. Subjectively, one listener may prefer a different presentation than another in a situation like this but that's another can of worms.

[Macca]

Changing volume will change perceived sound quality though and we can detect down to 0.1 dB of difference; this doesn't just apply to phono stages but everything.

[Barry]

Changing volume will change perceived sound quality though and we can detect down to 0.1 dB of difference; this doesn't just apply to phono stages but everything.

Really? You're a better man than me.

https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_level.php?lvl=0.1

[Marco]

What I'm saying is that with fully adjustable gain it is apparent that there is a lot more to signal to noise than hiss being audible. That very small increases or decreases in gain result in qualitative differences in sound quality.

Think of it this way: there will be an optimal setting for gain. There has to be.

That's my view, and once you move away from that, the sound will be clearly be sub-optimal. It's only optimal, if its OPTIMAL!

Marco.

[Marco]

On the other hand... maybe Marco has a point. With the typical op-amp type of circuit with lots of feedback the distortion stays fairly constant until a certain point is reached where the distortion goes through the roof, but with the type of circuit employed in some headamps such as the Lentek the distortion rises steadily as the signal level rises - so maybe there's some merit in the idea that there's a sweet spot between the extremes. But that will only apply to certain types of circuit, not all circuits (hence not all products).

The "sweet spot" is simply the point where the optimum sound has been achieved, arrived at as a result of the optimal settings having been applied. It's no more complicated than that.

Think of it, in terms of the sound 'snapping into focus', rather like what happens with a cartridge, when you succeed in dialling in *just the right amount* of VTF. It's that type of effect, and in that respect, the difference between the sound 'snapping into focus' or not, could be as little as 0.01g.... It's the same with gain, and db levels.

Marco.