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Thread: In praise of the Denon 103...

  1. #11
    Join Date: Aug 2018

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    Dissenting voice here, I have owned many of all sort of flavours, stock and modded, over the years, and could never get worked up about them. Their charms do not outweight their flaws in my book and if strapped for cash I'd rather run a decent MM (as, indeed, I do on the 401 in my study system).
    Have to agree on this I never got on with the cartridge, I can see the attraction because of the price etc I just find them rather uninspiring, while if I had more to spend a good moving coil wins, you do get alot more bang for your buck with a decent MM with alot more body and scale while not the ultimate detail of the great MC cartridges out there.
    Most important and used Walker Black Diamond Etsuro Gold, Micro Seiki 8000mk2 Kondo special V12 Tiger Eye, Fidelity Research FR 66 Shindo spu, EMT 927, sme 312 aluminium. Fidelity research fr66, Sme 3012 mk1, Sme V, Ikeda 407 IT Sme Model 30/2/Dynavector 507 Kodo Beat Turntable Airtangent 10B modified Fidelity fr66s Etsuro Cartridge . Kondo Gakuoh Mk1 powers G70 Pre,Audio Tekne TFA-8695PCS pre Audio Tekne TEA 8695 Phono. Lfd Battery Phono Stage heavily custom rebuilt by Dr Richard Bews, Tharx Phono Stage. Lfd Master Dual Biamp power amp, Lfd Anniversary master preamp. Shindo Latour Field Coil. Rockport Cygnus Biamped, Voigt Domestic Corner Horns/ Feastex Fildcoils. LFD Custom silver Ribbons. LFD Diamond Vipor Mk2 interconnects, Lfd Golden Cobra interconnect. Koetsu blue lace mono special order, Koetsu burma jade mono special order.

  2. #12
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by tlscapital View Post



    The DL-102 is NOT a stereo cartridge strapped internally for mono, but is specially designed to output a mono signal from a stereo LP, so there is no danger of damaging a modern record by its use. Denon's own instruction sheet states "The DL-102 is a monophonic output moving coil cartridge designed for monophonic replay as well as the monophonic playback of stereo recordings."

    This is exactly why I went ahead for this DL-102 cartridge in the first place; as a one phono set-up, one turntable, one arm, one cartridge... for my thousand of vintage records, most MONO, some STEREO and some "unknown", a compromising MONO cartridge was a good argument to go for it. After all the tweak-in journey was long, surprising but so rewarding as revealing of it's true potential. PRAISE !
    Totally agreed on the need for a heavier arm on either of these but most of all on the 102.

    There is variable information out there on how many coils are in the 102 but there are certainly some people asserting it only has one. Denon is not specific in their information and I haven’t seen one opened up. However it is set up to have zero output from vertical position and that’s exactly what you want here.

    It’s certainly great value for what it sells for. The only caveat from a mono point of view is the small stylus size - early mono and even some stereo 45s really need a bigger tip.

  3. #13
    Join Date: Sep 2012

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    I'm Nick.

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    No-one would claim they are the last word in MC cartridges, I think the point is that for the money they do a surprisingly decent job. Paired with a Jelco 750D on my 1210 the 103 sounds fine to my (cloth) ears, but then I can't bring myself to spend +1k on a cartridge that's only going to last a limited time anyway...

  4. #14
    Join Date: Sep 2016

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    I'm Tim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrajbasi View Post
    Have to agree on this I never got on with the cartridge, I can see the attraction because of the price etc I just find them rather uninspiring, while if I had more to spend a good moving coil wins, you do get alot more bang for your buck with a decent MM with alot more body and scale while not the ultimate detail of the great MC cartridges out there.
    This is where I was trying to see if maybe the DL-103, that which I don't have nor know, was actually on the exotic side like it's forefather the DL-102 that I have set by ear (nothing like in the book) on my adjustable preamp with the Load impedance @ 100 ohms, the Capacitance @ 100 pF and Gain @ 60dB. Since I done that, believe me I do get much more juice out of my cartridge and it's a pleasure to hear it. Before those adjustments and the tonearm mass consecutive enhancements, it was simply good (cleaner MONO groove pick-up) without much "charm, character or depth" to it...
    - Cart Denon DL-102 in bakelite Ortofon SPU 'G' type headshell
    - TA SME 3009 'Improved' converted in heavy mass with detachable headshell
    - TT Thorens TD160 'E' totally tweaked driven by an 'Eagle & RoadRunner' PSU & tachometer combo
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  5. #15
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

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    I always find these discussions about the 'ol DL-103 quite fascinating. I've been using various versions of it now, on and off, for the last 35 years (as when optimised I love how it plays music), and so trust me, I know what this cartridge is all about - and also exactly how to hear it at its best.

    With that in mind, it's clear that many of its detractors, for perfectly understandable reasons, haven't had that experience and enjoyed what this truly wonderful cartridge is capable of when used optimally in the right context. I say that because I *know* that if I demonstrated my own DL-103, in my system, or even took my turntable, fitted with one (and perhaps also my preamp/phono-stage and head amp) to a bake off, that most would be very impressed indeed with the sound, even if they still ultimately preferred something else

    Ok, so let's establish a few facts about the DL-103, and also what it needs to perform *optimally*:

    1) Price: it's only 'cheap' because of economies of scale, having been in commercial production by Denon (Nippon Columbia Co. Ltd) since 1968, and so many thousands have been made in that time, and therefore the associated costs of production have long since been paid for.

    Every part contained on the cartridge, aside from its stock plastic shell, is of the highest quality, and if it were produced instead by a smaller 'renowned high-end cartridge manufacturer', not tooled up to make it in the way Denon are, and priced to appeal to 'audiophile snobs', it would cost around £1000, instead of its current £250, especially if housed in a metal body-shell.

    2) The latter is key, because that's where the bulk of the cost cutting has been done. It's also the SINGLE most contributory factor towards its sonic limitations. Remove said plastic shell (and use it 'nude') or house the cartridge in any of the superb aftermarket wooden or metal body-shells available, and quite simply it becomes a different animal.

    3) DL-103s produced by Nippon Columbia, up until the mid 1990s, sound markedly better than those produced after that era, especially those in current production. I believe that's largely because of the switch from alnico to rare-earth magnets.

    4) Therefore, bearing the above in mind, you simply *haven't* heard a DL-103 properly unless:

    a) It's been 'nuded' or rehoused in a superior body-shell, as the stock plastic one massively limits its performance.

    b) It's fitted onto a high/medium-mass classic Japanese tonearm, with detachable headshell, and the partnering headshell in particular is of the optimum mass (minimum 15g) and very rigid/well-damped. DL-103s simply do not work on the vast majority of modern tonearms!!

    c) It's preferably used with a direct-drive or idler-driven turntable, fitted with a high-torque motor unit, which is able to combat the effect of stylus drag, generated from the existence of the above mass/weight, combined with high tracking forces of 2.5g+

    d) It's preferably used with a valve MM phono stage and SUT or head amp, the combination of which loads it optimally and provides sufficient gain, but *most importantly* is a correct match, sonically/tonally, in order to release its true potential. I've never heard a DL-103 sound right through a standalone MC phono stage.

    e) The example you own, or have heard, is from the Nippon Columbia era, pre-1995.

    Therefore, folks, because I *really do* know what I'm talking about on this particular subject, I can say with absolute certainty that unless you can tick ALL of the above boxes, you simply haven't heard what this deservedly iconic cartridge is capable of, and therefore that will naturally influence your opinion of it accordingly

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


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  6. #16
    Join Date: Jul 2009

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    I'm Adam.

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    The DL103 is a funny old thing, but, as Marco says, it needs very careful matching to give of its best.

    In my experience, most of the time it sounds "nice" - inoffensive and certainly enjoyable and good value for money, but nothing special. In an Empire 598 it sounded superb. In a Yamaha GT-2000 it sounds nothing short of spellbinding.

    In fact, the GT-2000 experience has impressed me so much that I've even found myself eyeing up the posh versions on eBay...
    Engineers: fixing problems you didn't know you had in ways you don't understand.

  7. #17
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I always find these discussions about the 'ol DL-103 quite fascinating. I've been using various versions of it now, on and off, for the last 35 years (as when optimised I love how it plays music), and so trust me, I know what this cartridge is all about - and also exactly how to hear it at its best.

    With that in mind, it's clear that many of its detractors, for perfectly understandable reasons haven't had that experience, and enjoyed what this truly wonderful cartridge is capable of when used optimally in the right context. I say that because I *know* that if I demonstrated my own one, in my system, or even took my turntable, fitted with one (and perhaps also my preamp/phono-stage and head amp, to a bake off, that most would be impressed with the sound, even if they still ultimately preferred something else.

    Ok, so let's establish a few facts about the DL-103, and also what it needs to perform *optimally*:

    1) Price: it's only 'cheap' because of economies of scale, having been in production by Denon since 1968, and so many thousands have been made in that time, so the associated costs of producing it have long since been paid for. Every part contained on the cartridge, aside from its stock plastic shell, is of the highest quality, and if it were produced instead by a smaller 'renowned high-end cartridge manufacturer', not tooled up to make it in the way Denon are, and priced to appeal to 'audiophile snobs', it would cost nearer £1000, than it's current £250, especially if housed in a metal body-shell.

    2) The latter is key, because that's where the bulk of the cost cutting has been done: the plastic body-shell. It's also the SINGLE most contributory factor to its sonic limitations. Remove that (and use it 'nude') or house it in any of the superb aftermarket wooden or metal body-shells available, and quite simply it is a different animal.

    3) Therefore, bearing the above in mind, you simply *haven't* heard a DL-103 properly unless:

    a) It's been 'nuded' or rehoused in a superior body-shell, as the stock one massively limits its performance.

    b) It's fitted onto a high/medium-mass classic Japanese tonearm with detachable headshell, and the headshell in particular is of the correct mass (minimum 15g) and very well-damped. DL-103s simply do not work on the vast majority of modern tonearms!

    c) It's preferably used with a direct-drive or idler turntable, fitted with a high-torque motor unit, which is able to combat the effect of stylus drag, from the existence of all of the above mass, combined with tracking forces of 2.5g+

    d) It's preferably used with a valve MM phono stage and SUT or head amp, the combination of which loads it optimally and provides sufficient gain, but *most importantly* is a correct match, sonically/tonally, in order to release its true potential.

    Therefore, folks, because I really do know what I'm talking about on this particular subject, I can say with absolute certainty that unless you can tick ALL of the above boxes, you simply haven't heard what this deservedly iconic cartridge is capable of, and therefore that will naturally influence your opinion of it accordingly

    Marco.
    Got to disagree with you on some of this Marco.

    Totally agreed that many people who express disappointment in the 103 aren't using it right - agreed it's best in heavy arm, on a DD or idler, with a decent amount of tracking force, and the correct loading - yes all that is a given. I concur that all too often people stick them in lightweight Rega arm with inappropriate loading and pronounce them crap. But I really don't think that's what the discussion here is about.

    I too have had familiarity with this cartridge for 20 years or more, and I've never got one to give me anything like the same pleasure I get from many other cartridges. And I have tried all sorts of variants - standard 103, 103R - an undoubted improvement but not quite there, SA, 103D all spring to mind, as well as Soundsmith and ESCO paratrace variants, Uwe and other bodies in rosewood, ebony and metal, also tried adding mass by fixing weight to the cartridge body itself. I really tried to get along with it. (The 109D, by contrast - a superb Denon moving magnet that was more expensive than the 103 in its hey day, was superb).

    Funnily enough the only 103 I ever really liked was a Soundsmith mono version where the coils had been rotated 90 degrees - giving double mono output along the lines of what Lyra do, but quite effective.

    I'm not quite in agreement that economies of scale are the sole reason for cheapness - I suspect there's also high tolerance for production variability, and while the flexible body is certainly an issue, even fixing that never quite did the trick for me. There's something more holding it back, a combination of design limitations and materials I think.

    All in all - it just does nothing for me. It probably doesn't help that I've always had 'better' cartridges to hand (even a long time ago these would have included the AT OC9 and some top notch MMs). I would never encourage people to splash out on expensive retipping or rebody work because in my view a 'designed from scratch' higher performance cartridge is always going to perform more coherently and consistently than the phono equivalent of a home-modified Ford Escort with aftermarket wide bore exhaust and go faster stripes. The versions improved by Denon themselves are better - but even so you still hit its limitations.

  8. #18
    Join Date: Oct 2014

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    I'm Richie.

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    i've still got that 109D and it is sensational. just this morning i set it up on my arm so that i could hear it through the trilogy and it gives the hana sl a good run (early doors!)

  9. #19
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    Dissenting voice here, I have owned many of all sort of flavours, stock and modded, over the years, and could never get worked up about them. Their charms do not outweight their flaws in my book and if strapped for cash I'd rather run a decent MM (as, indeed, I do on the 401 in my study system).
    Interesting comments, Tom. Of almost anyone here, you've got all the right 'tools' to potentially hear a 103 at its best, so can I ask what you perceive as its flaws and also have you heard one in superior body-shell - and if so, in your opinion how much did that help address the flaws you perceive with one housed in its stock plastic shell?

    The other thing I'd say, as a fellow fan of the SPU, is in my opinion, a fully-optimised DL-103 (as detailed in my last post) sounds every bit as good as a conical-tipped SPU, although of course they both have slightly different 'sonic flavours', but that aside, there's not much in it, and certainly a DL-103 optimised thus is not disgraced by an entry-level conical-tipped SPU.

    In fact, they have much in common with the sound that they produce!

    It's only when you go up the SPU range and play with ones fitted with fine-line styli (and such like) that things notably change, as ultimately any stylus with a spherical tip will have its high-frequency (and distortion) limitations, and the 103 is not alone in that respect.

    What are your views on that?

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  10. #20
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Lol - Tom, just read your last post! I'll get to it later

    However, in the meantime, feel free to address my last post. One quick thing, I've got to completely disagree with an OC-9 being "better" - yes maybe if you're a detail freak and like a lean/bright sound, which majors on 'hifiisms', rather than musicality, but not otherwise!

    The DL-103 also has FAR better (more realistic) bass. Talk more after lunch

    Marco.

    P.S Adam, interesting post also. I'll get to it later!
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


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