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Thread: In praise of the Denon 103...

  1. #31
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Hi Andrew,

    Basically, it comes down to stuff like high, versus low/medium-mass tonearms, and low-compliance, versus medium-compliance cartridges. The former is the 'unfashionable' way of doing things, along with using direct-drive and idler turntables, as opposed to belt-driven ones, and even things like 'S' or 'J'-shaped tonearms with detachable headshells, instead of straight ones with fixed headshells.

    There's other stuff too (such as using an SUT or head amp, with a low-output MC cartridge, as opposed to solely a standalone MC phono stage), spherical styli versus line-contact [and the high VTFs often needed with some spherical/conical tips] - and all of this highlights the contrast in both approaches. The DL-103 requies one to adopt an 'unfashionable' approach to turntable building/vinyl listening, in order for it to perform optimally.

    The Japs have been adopting said 'unfashionable' approach for years, with great success, and when I tried it for myself, I discovered what I'd been missing for a long time with vinyl replay!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

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  2. #32
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: Chippenham, Wilts

    Posts: 97
    I'm Anthony.

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    An interesting discussion.

    Until recently I have never explored the realm of MC cartridges in my set-up. As often the case I have (for many years) been on a hi-fi journey swapping boxes on the way seeking so called audio nirvana, all subject to budget constraints of course.

    For the last few years I have been using a modified LP12 with Infinity Black Widow tonearm and Shure V15iii with Jico SAS stylus. This into a Croft RIAA R phono stage. Quite happy (reputed synergy between Black Widow and the Shure) but a few months back decided to explore a new direction to hopefully escape the LP12 "upgradeitus" and went for a pre-loved Well Tempered Amadeus GT. I had a spare V15 so was able to run the two decks side by side and was very happy to let the LP12 go.

    I thought the WTA would allow me to explore MC carts so picked up a used Harmonius Audio MPA-1a mk-ii battery operated head amp on pfm for £50. Chance had it that the seller also had a Denon 103GL he was looking to move on so I made a spontaneous purchase for a few hundred notes. A refurbished item originally purchased from an E-Bay seller with carbon fibre body, additional damping and new cantilever with Shibata stylus. The chap I bought it from had added a brass shim to the cart also. Clearly no chance of me experiencing the "true" 103 experience then Marco.

    I had to add an after-market heavier counterweight to the the WT arm to make it all work. However taken on its own merits my subjective view was that I had moved several notches up the ladder. Notwithstanding I have been encouraged to take things a bit further and a Rothwell Headspace has arrived this morning so I am looking forward to hooking that up and spending a few hopefully even more enjoyable hours of listening this evening.

    I have certainly found the comments on this thread interesting and your informed input on others Marco very valuable. I guess from my perspective I have to limit my adventures due to budget constraints. Thus I "suck it and see" and swap things around from time to time. Subjectively I have been delighted with my 103GL whilst this might not be in ideal circumstances in absolute terms.

    Looking forward to seeing what the Headspace brings to the party. Maybe in due course I will end up with a Dynavector cart as these are supposed to be "best" for the WTA. Meanwhile I will carry on enjoying the party.

    Cheers and thanks again for all the informative comments here and elsewhere on Aos.

    Anthony

  3. #33
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Hi Anthony,

    Good post and I'm glad you're enjoying AoS

    Quote Originally Posted by Antinchip View Post
    I thought the WTA would allow me to explore MC carts so picked up a used Harmonius Audio MPA-1a mk-ii battery operated head amp on pfm for £50. Chance had it that the seller also had a Denon 103GL he was looking to move on so I made a spontaneous purchase for a few hundred notes. A refurbished item originally purchased from an E-Bay seller with carbon fibre body, additional damping and new cantilever with Shibata stylus. The chap I bought it from had added a brass shim to the cart also. Clearly no chance of me experiencing the "true" 103 experience then Marco.
    Lol! Well, that aside, what you bought was still very good and clearly capable of performing to a high standard, which is the important thing. A fully optimised DL-103 may not even be your thing [you don't know], especially if you value the filigree detailing and super-sparkly highs, which a Shibata stylus will deliver.

    I had to add an after-market heavier counterweight to the the WT arm to make it all work. However taken on its own merits my subjective view was that I had moved several notches up the ladder.
    Nice one. Now you see the potential advantages of adopting an 'unfashionable' approach? Sometimes it pays to be an heretic!

    Notwithstanding I have been encouraged to take things a bit further and a Rothwell Headspace has arrived this morning so I am looking forward to hooking that up and spending a few hopefully even more enjoyable hours of listening this evening.
    Good move. I'd expect the Rothwell to be notably better, especially in areas such as overall resolution and it acting as more of an 'open window' onto recordings.

    One tip I'd give with your battery head amp, if you haven't done so already, is if it utilises a 9V one, use a Duracell, as apposed to any other makes, especially cheap supermarket varieties, as for some reason they seem to improve sound quality. That's certainly the case with my Lentek.

    Also, if you can, plug the Headspace into its own dedicated wall socket, and isolate it as far as possible from any items liable to inject noise into the mains supply, such as computer/phone-related items with poorly designed switch-mode power supplies. Or if you use a mains block/distribution unit, plug the Headspace into the socket nearest the mains inlet, and any 'noisy' stuff at the other end. Better still, use two separate mains blocks, one for 'noisy' and one for 'clean' stuff.

    The difference isn't liable to be 'night and day', but experience has taught me that such things can often subtly improve matters.

    I have certainly found the comments on this thread interesting and your informed input on others Marco very valuable. I guess from my perspective I have to limit my adventures due to budget constraints. Thus I "suck it and see" and swap things around from time to time. Subjectively I have been delighted with my 103GL whilst this might not be in ideal circumstances in absolute terms.
    Firstly, you're welcome. For me, it's all about sharing our respective experiences for the benefit of the community.

    Secondly, and most importantly for you, hold onto that GL, or if you sell it on, get the right price for it! The GL (Gold Limited) is one of the best 103s ever made, featuring coils constructed from 4N high-purity gold wire, similar to what's used in the DL-S1.

    It's a rather special cartridge, and combines some of the best features of the 103SA (such as its fibreglass composite housing and 6N OFC internal wiring) and DL-S1. You will struggle to better that cartridge in the areas it excels in, no matter how much you spend!

    Looking forward to seeing what the Headspace brings to the party. Maybe in due course I will end up with a Dynavector cart as these are supposed to be "best" for the WTA. Meanwhile I will carry on enjoying the party.
    Sure, if that's the route you choose to go down, and let's face it, given the lovely turntable you've got, it makes perfect sense. Enjoy the Headspace and I look forward to reading your views

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  4. #34
    Join Date: Apr 2016

    Location: Gravesend and France

    Posts: 1,498
    I'm paul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    Dissenting voice here, I have owned many of all sort of flavours, stock and modded, over the years, and could never get worked up about them. Their charms do not outweight their flaws in my book and if strapped for cash I'd rather run a decent MM (as, indeed, I do on the 401 in my study system).
    I'm interested to know which mm you would prefer if strapped for cash against a very reasonably priced 103 Tom
    Bakoon 13r Denon DP80 Stax UA-70 Shure Ultra 500 in a Martin Bastin body with jico stylus, project ds2 digital Rullit aero 8 field coils in tqwt speakers

    Office system, DIY CSS fullrange speakers with aurum cantus G2 ribbons yulong dac Sony STR6055 receiver Jvc QL-A51 direct drive turntable, Leema sub. JVC Z4S cart is in the house

    Garage system another Sony receiver, cassette deck


    System components are subject to change without warning and at the discretion of the owner.

  5. #35
    Join Date: Apr 2016

    Location: Gravesend and France

    Posts: 1,498
    I'm paul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I always find these discussions about the 'ol DL-103 quite fascinating. I've been using various versions of it now, on and off, for the last 35 years (as when optimised I love how it plays music), and so trust me, I know what this cartridge is all about - and also exactly how to hear it at its best.

    With that in mind, it's clear that many of its detractors, for perfectly understandable reasons, haven't had that experience and enjoyed what this truly wonderful cartridge is capable of when used optimally in the right context. I say that because I *know* that if I demonstrated my own DL-103, in my system, or even took my turntable, fitted with one (and perhaps also my preamp/phono-stage and head amp) to a bake off, that most would be very impressed indeed with the sound, even if they still ultimately preferred something else

    Ok, so let's establish a few facts about the DL-103, and also what it needs to perform *optimally*:

    1) Price: it's only 'cheap' because of economies of scale, having been in commercial production by Denon (Nippon Columbia Co. Ltd) since 1968, and so many thousands have been made in that time, and therefore the associated costs of production have long since been paid for.

    Every part contained on the cartridge, aside from its stock plastic shell, is of the highest quality, and if it were produced instead by a smaller 'renowned high-end cartridge manufacturer', not tooled up to make it in the way Denon are, and priced to appeal to 'audiophile snobs', it would cost around £1000, instead of its current £250, especially if housed in a metal body-shell.

    2) The latter is key, because that's where the bulk of the cost cutting has been done. It's also the SINGLE most contributory factor towards its sonic limitations. Remove said plastic shell (and use it 'nude') or house the cartridge in any of the superb aftermarket wooden or metal body-shells available, and quite simply it becomes a different animal.

    3) DL-103s produced by Nippon Columbia, up until the mid 1990s, sound markedly better than those produced after that era, especially those in current production. I believe that's largely because of the switch from alnico to rare-earth magnets.

    4) Therefore, bearing the above in mind, you simply *haven't* heard a DL-103 properly unless:

    a) It's been 'nuded' or rehoused in a superior body-shell, as the stock plastic one massively limits its performance.

    b) It's fitted onto a high/medium-mass classic Japanese tonearm, with detachable headshell, and the partnering headshell in particular is of the optimum mass (minimum 15g) and very rigid/well-damped. DL-103s simply do not work on the vast majority of modern tonearms!!

    c) It's preferably used with a direct-drive or idler-driven turntable, fitted with a high-torque motor unit, which is able to combat the effect of stylus drag, generated from the existence of the above mass/weight, combined with high tracking forces of 2.5g+

    d) It's preferably used with a valve MM phono stage and SUT or head amp, the combination of which loads it optimally and provides sufficient gain, but *most importantly* is a correct match, sonically/tonally, in order to release its true potential. I've never heard a DL-103 sound right through a standalone MC phono stage.

    e) The example you own, or have heard, is from the Nippon Columbia era, pre-1995.

    Therefore, folks, because I *really do* know what I'm talking about on this particular subject, I can say with absolute certainty that unless you can tick ALL of the above boxes, you simply haven't heard what this deservedly iconic cartridge is capable of, and therefore that will naturally influence your opinion of it accordingly

    Marco.
    nail head
    Bakoon 13r Denon DP80 Stax UA-70 Shure Ultra 500 in a Martin Bastin body with jico stylus, project ds2 digital Rullit aero 8 field coils in tqwt speakers

    Office system, DIY CSS fullrange speakers with aurum cantus G2 ribbons yulong dac Sony STR6055 receiver Jvc QL-A51 direct drive turntable, Leema sub. JVC Z4S cart is in the house

    Garage system another Sony receiver, cassette deck


    System components are subject to change without warning and at the discretion of the owner.

  6. #36
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulf-2007 View Post
    I'm interested to know which mm you would prefer if strapped for cash against a very reasonably priced 103 Tom
    Totally depends on the arm. There are some at every compliance point and not just vintage ones. I see you run a Shure Ultra which makes the point precisely!

    I'm a big fan of the Audio Note cartridges and an IQ1 would be preferable to me than a Denon 103 but also the Goldring 1022 and AT150MLX. I'm also a fan of Nagaokas and the more expensive ones put your average low end (up to £1000) MC to shame. On the high compliance side the Musicmaker cartridges are excellent and reasonable second hand..

    In my Garrard 401 / AT 1503 Mk1 (a broadcast arm designed for NHK) into a tube MM phono stage, I alternate between a Shure SC35C and a Tonar Diabolic E - either of which I prefer to the DL103 - alternating at times with an Ortofon SL15 MC with the accompanying vintage Ortofon SUT. This is more refined for sure than the MMs, but not necessarily hugely more musical than the other two. (The MMs I have loaded up in their headshells to 30g Ortofon SPU sort of mass with heavy counterweight, the SL15 I have on the lighter counterweight as it doesn't need the mass loading).

    Despite my general misgivings about hot rodding cartridges, I have been pondering a wood body for the Tonar - a practice much in vogue over on the Lenco forum ... Thomas Schick actually has a commercial offering based on it at more than 400 Euros, basically a Tonar rebody with a graphite headshell. Before you write off the Tonar - new it's about £60 - do consider that it's made by Nagaoka and identical in the mechanics and electronics to some of the more desirable vintage Technics MMs (the Technics low-compliance styli are fully interchangeable).

    I am pretty firm in my belief that pound for pound, the better MMs offer more musicality and overall performance than cheap MCs.

    I could list loads more.

  7. #37
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: Chippenham, Wilts

    Posts: 97
    I'm Anthony.

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    Marco, thanks for your observations at post No 34.

    I have previously picked up most of your nuggets of advice from previous threads, thank you. The Headspace psu was first in an extension block but then moved to its own power socket. However given the distance away the lead was at full extension so somewhat bizzarely I picked up a local radio station or taxi firm! Back to the extension block.

    Unfortunately opportunity for serious listening last evening was limited (my wife was supposed to be out but decided to stay in!). Nevertheless a few sides of vinyl produced the sweetest sounds I have experienced with my own system. The battery head amp seems to be a fine entry level item but the Headspace is clearly a premium piece of kit allowing the 103 to really sing. The sound was clear, detailed, expansive and even more enjoyable than previously. I'm looking forward to the next session.

    Cheers

  8. #38
    Join Date: Apr 2016

    Location: Gravesend and France

    Posts: 1,498
    I'm paul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    Totally depends on the arm. There are some at every compliance point and not just vintage ones. I see you run a Shure Ultra which makes the point precisely!

    I'm a big fan of the Audio Note cartridges and an IQ1 would be preferable to me than a Denon 103 but also the Goldring 1022 and AT150MLX. I'm also a fan of Nagaokas and the more expensive ones put your average low end (up to £1000) MC to shame. On the high compliance side the Musicmaker cartridges are excellent and reasonable second hand..

    In my Garrard 401 / AT 1503 Mk1 (a broadcast arm designed for NHK) into a tube MM phono stage, I alternate between a Shure SC35C and a Tonar Diabolic E - either of which I prefer to the DL103 - alternating at times with an Ortofon SL15 MC with the accompanying vintage Ortofon SUT. This is more refined for sure than the MMs, but not necessarily hugely more musical than the other two. (The MMs I have loaded up in their headshells to 30g Ortofon SPU sort of mass with heavy counterweight, the SL15 I have on the lighter counterweight as it doesn't need the mass loading).

    Despite my general misgivings about hot rodding cartridges, I have been pondering a wood body for the Tonar - a practice much in vogue over on the Lenco forum ... Thomas Schick actually has a commercial offering based on it at more than 400 Euros, basically a Tonar rebody with a graphite headshell. Before you write off the Tonar - new it's about £60 - do consider that it's made by Nagaoka and identical in the mechanics and electronics to some of the more desirable vintage Technics MMs (the Technics low-compliance styli are fully interchangeable).

    I am pretty firm in my belief that pound for pound, the better MMs offer more musicality and overall performance than cheap MCs.

    I could list loads more.
    the Shure ultra was £500 used, obviously, around the same figure was a decca c4e and Benz wood sl, all very nice, the decca a bit "seat of yer pants " and needing more care on set up and records needed to be spotlessly clean. The Shure is just more musical. I tried a Denon 103 and 103r, I preferred the 103r but the step up was made for it with the correct resistors, but not much in it. Well set up they are very good but I couldn't see going to the trouble of nuding it or putting in a wood body with the risk of breaking it. Not that I'm against anyone else doing that, as Marco has found it very rewarding.
    Bakoon 13r Denon DP80 Stax UA-70 Shure Ultra 500 in a Martin Bastin body with jico stylus, project ds2 digital Rullit aero 8 field coils in tqwt speakers

    Office system, DIY CSS fullrange speakers with aurum cantus G2 ribbons yulong dac Sony STR6055 receiver Jvc QL-A51 direct drive turntable, Leema sub. JVC Z4S cart is in the house

    Garage system another Sony receiver, cassette deck


    System components are subject to change without warning and at the discretion of the owner.

  9. #39
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 31,985
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    RFI can be caused by pickup by the coils within the cartridge, if the cartridge body is not shielded and earthed.

    Many years ago, whilst using an AKG cartridge (a fixed-coil design) I picked up the communication from a taxi that was parked outside my house. I was playing a record at the time, so the breakthrough (which was quite intelligible) came as quite a surprise! A couple of ferrite beads fitted on the leads from the RCA phono sockets within the preamp cured the problem.
    Barry

  10. #40
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: Chippenham, Wilts

    Posts: 97
    I'm Anthony.

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    Thank you for your comments Andrew and Barry. It may be a one off oddity, never happened before.

    On first use the Headspace psu was connected to a power block and no such issues during 30 minutes listening. Later on I spent 10 minutes enjoying a track first having plugged the psu into the nearest available free power socket. When I lifted the stylus without muting volume I noticed a quiet, sibilant noise from the nearest speaker. Ear next to the speaker revealed what could have been "radio", there were certainly voices. Same with the other speaker, and stayed even when volume was muted. I just moved the psu back to the power block and normality was restored.

    First impressions of the Headspace are very positive Andrew. I am not really au-fait with loadings and so on but based on my research set the Headspace to 100ohm and 25dB for first listen. The Harmonious Audio unit has fixed 100ohm at 32dB and 180ohm at 28dB. I tried both but settled on 32dB. The Headspace on first use seems marginally quieter but far superior overall. I will have more time to listen/experiment over the weekend so will try various settings and see what suits me best. I will let you know how I get on. Many thanks.

    Cheers

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