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Thread: Where has my bass gone? :-(

  1. #1
    Join Date: Feb 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 138
    I'm Simon.

    Default Where has my bass gone? :-(

    My main system sounds overbright - way too much trebble and not nearly enough bass. It definitely hasn't always been like this but for various reasons it has had very little use over the last few years so I don't know when the problem might have occurred. During that time I've moved house twice. After the first move I had no bass at all which turned out to be because the surrounds for the bass cones on my JPW AP2s had disintegrated. I replaced and repaired them myself (there's a thread on that here somewhere but the forum search doesn't seem to be working at the moment) after which I could hear bass again and was very pleased with myself but it's possible that the balance was all wrong due to a botch on my part and some confirmation bias was stopping me from realising it.

    It's also possible that the problem lies elsewhere entirely. Worn out components in the cross-overs for example or a problem with the amplifier.

    I measured the impedance across the woofer input on the speaker (I have them biwired) and it read pretty much exactly 7ohms but when I did the same across the tweeter input I couldn't get a reading. I don't really know why. I was able to get a reading directly across the tweeter (bypassing the crossover components) but that's fairly meaningless because I was interested in finding out what impedance the amplifier was seeing.

    Yesterday I needed to test a new stylus I had bought for my record deck and the only amp I have with a phono stage is the one in my main system. Knowing this was very top heavy I took the tape out from my main amp via a very long interconnect to an input on my second system and listened there. This sounded fine. My second system, like my main one, has a Marantz amp and JPW speakers (see my signature for full details). Unlike my main system however, the second one has tone controls and I did notice that I had the bass set at +4db and the trebble set at -2db which is something I had obviously done when I set it up and then completely forgotten about. I swapped the amp from my second system into my main system and listened both with the EQ settings I normally use on my second system and with it flat. It still sounded too bright with the EQ flat but didn't sound too bad with my normal settings. I'm still not completely convinced that it was right though and these kinds of changes take too long for really meaningful AB comparisons anyway.

    Right now I'm just completely confused. None of this seems to make any sense and I don't know what to do next. I could move my speakers from the second system (JPW gold monitors) into my main one and listen to that but the gold monitors are so much smaller than the AP2s that there's no way I could expect as much bass from them anyway so I'm not sure what I would learn.

    I'm willing to spend money on the right thing to fix this problem but I'm reluctant to chuck money at it blindly. Replacement woofers for the AP2s are still available (made in the original factory with the original tooling despite these being 30 year old speakers!) but at £150 a pair it's an expensive thing to try if I can't be sure that's the problem.

    I would really appreciate any advice on how to figure out what on earth is going on. I don't have a background in electronics but I do have a little knowledge from my degree in Physics and I have a decent multi-meter which I'm not afraid to use if there's anything that needs measuring.

    Many thanks in anticipation,

    Simon.
    System 1: Marantz CD6000OSE, Beresford TC-7520, Marantz PM6010OSE, QED QNect II interconnect, Dual CS505 Mk3 turntable with Audiotechnica AT110E cartridge, Denon DRM-700A cassette deck, biwired B&W 685 S2 speakers on sand-filled Atacama SE24 supports.
    System 2: Marantz M-CR610, JPW Gold Monitors, Chord C-Screen speaker cables, NAS drive.
    System 3 (portable): Cayin N3
    My website: Foxysounds website
    My music: Foxysounds music

  2. #2
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: W Lothian

    Posts: 99,005
    I'm Grant.

    Default

    first thing is to go back to basics. single wire them and links on. then work yourself though the pieces ... amp speakers cables til you hit on the issue....your lucky you have another system to work with. if possible try and try them in the good system if the initial rewire doesnt work in main system.. ie move stuff to good system bit by bit til the bass goes
    Regards,
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  3. #3
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,771
    I'm Martin.

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    Is it too toppy with a CD as well? Budget belt drive turntables like your Dual are not the best for delivering solid bass and Audio Technica cartridges can sound a bit thin too.


    Assuming the problem exists with CD as well, first thing is check your cabling, are you connected right? Wiring out of phase will cause that problem.


    If that's not the issue then it could be a combination of factors. I like the AP2, very good small speakers with a good balance, can't see them being the problem. Chord speaker cable can sound a bit toppy depending on the rest of the system, you could try using a thicker speaker cable. And speaker positioning, are they in free space or up against a wall? Get them closer to a wall will reinforce the bass frequencies at the expense of open soundstage.


    Last resort: QED interconnects can also sound a bit thin, you could consider replacing those.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  4. #4
    Join Date: Feb 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 138
    I'm Simon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by struth View Post
    first thing is to go back to basics. single wire them and links on.
    Hi Grant. Thanks for the response. The AP2s have two sets of binding posts but don't come with links. Instead the two halves of the crossover are connected by wires inside the speaker. To biwire them you have to open up the speaker and cut those wires. The wire length is only just sufficient so once cut they can't easily be rejoined. Instead what I did was swap the connections so that the wires I've been using for the woofers were driving the tweeters and vice versa. Having done this on both speakers and listened again it made no discernible difference but ...

    Quote Originally Posted by struth View Post
    if possible try and try them in the good system
    ... the good system is single wired. However, trying them in the good system is a good idea so I'll need to fashion some links. I have some spare semi-decent speaker cable I can use to do this. I'll give this a try later today.

    Thanks again for your input.

    Simon.
    System 1: Marantz CD6000OSE, Beresford TC-7520, Marantz PM6010OSE, QED QNect II interconnect, Dual CS505 Mk3 turntable with Audiotechnica AT110E cartridge, Denon DRM-700A cassette deck, biwired B&W 685 S2 speakers on sand-filled Atacama SE24 supports.
    System 2: Marantz M-CR610, JPW Gold Monitors, Chord C-Screen speaker cables, NAS drive.
    System 3 (portable): Cayin N3
    My website: Foxysounds website
    My music: Foxysounds music

  5. #5
    Join Date: Feb 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 138
    I'm Simon.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Is it too toppy with a CD as well?
    Hi Martin and thanks for your input. Yes - I tried multiple sources and the same problem exists with all of them which is why I suspect the speakers or amp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    first thing is check your cabling, are you connected right? Wiring out of phase will cause that problem.
    Sorry - I should have mentioned in my original post that I had already checked for this and ruled that out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    I like the AP2, very good small speakers with a good balance, can't see them being the problem.
    These speakers definitely have sounded very good in the past but I've done a repair on the bass drivers as I mentioned in the original post. They're also very old now and I know that some electronic components can age badly which is why I wonder about the crossovers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Chord speaker cable can sound a bit toppy depending on the rest of the system, you could try using a thicker speaker cable.
    The Chord cable is in my second system which sounds fine. The cable in my main system is QED Original Biwire. I'm pretty sure that's the exact same cable I was using when I last heard my system sounding really good so unless cable deteriorates (which I don't think it does) then I can't see that being the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    And speaker positioning, are they in free space or up against a wall?
    They're fairly close to a wall. The original reviews of these speakers recommended keeping them well away from walls to stop the bass getting out of hand. Definitely no sign of that at the moment :-( However, your comment does make me think about room acoustics generally. It could be that the room is very bright sounding. If I fashion some links and then get these speakers on my second system which is in a different room then that could be an interesting test.

    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Last resort: QED interconnects can also sound a bit thin, you could consider replacing those.
    Once again, I'm 99% certain I was using the same interconnect when I last had it sounding really good so this seems very unlikely. I don't have any other hifi interconnects to try it with either. I could consider replacing the interconnect with something which would sound more beefy - especially if I can pick something up second hand. That way if it makes no difference I could sell it on without too much loss. As you say, it's probably a last resort but is there anything in particular you recommend?

    Thanks again,

    Simon.
    System 1: Marantz CD6000OSE, Beresford TC-7520, Marantz PM6010OSE, QED QNect II interconnect, Dual CS505 Mk3 turntable with Audiotechnica AT110E cartridge, Denon DRM-700A cassette deck, biwired B&W 685 S2 speakers on sand-filled Atacama SE24 supports.
    System 2: Marantz M-CR610, JPW Gold Monitors, Chord C-Screen speaker cables, NAS drive.
    System 3 (portable): Cayin N3
    My website: Foxysounds website
    My music: Foxysounds music

  6. #6
    Join Date: Jun 2014

    Location: bolton

    Posts: 184
    I'm howard.

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    Have you walked all around your room? Is bass stronger anywhere in the room? You could be sat in a null

  7. #7
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,771
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by foxysounds View Post
    Hi Martin and thanks for your input. Yes - I tried multiple sources and the same problem exists with all of them which is why I suspect the speakers or amp.


    Sorry - I should have mentioned in my original post that I had already checked for this and ruled that out.


    These speakers definitely have sounded very good in the past but I've done a repair on the bass drivers as I mentioned in the original post. They're also very old now and I know that some electronic components can age badly which is why I wonder about the crossovers.


    The Chord cable is in my second system which sounds fine. The cable in my main system is QED Original Biwire. I'm pretty sure that's the exact same cable I was using when I last heard my system sounding really good so unless cable deteriorates (which I don't think it does) then I can't see that being the problem.


    They're fairly close to a wall. The original reviews of these speakers recommended keeping them well away from walls to stop the bass getting out of hand. Definitely no sign of that at the moment :-( However, your comment does make me think about room acoustics generally. It could be that the room is very bright sounding. If I fashion some links and then get these speakers on my second system which is in a different room then that could be an interesting test.


    Once again, I'm 99% certain I was using the same interconnect when I last had it sounding really good so this seems very unlikely. I don't have any other hifi interconnects to try it with either. I could consider replacing the interconnect with something which would sound more beefy - especially if I can pick something up second hand. That way if it makes no difference I could sell it on without too much loss. As you say, it's probably a last resort but is there anything in particular you recommend?

    Thanks again,

    Simon.
    Just try anything other than the QED, it shouldn't really make any difference but sometimes these things can surprise you. Otherwise, if you're confident this particular set of components used to sound good then I guess a fault in amp or speakers is the only thing left, although I don't know what sort of a fault would cause a lack of bass but otherwise sound fine. I've had more faulty bits of kit over the years than Amstrad and that's never one I've come across, maybe someone else here has?
    Last edited by Macca; 24-09-2018 at 06:12.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  8. #8
    Join Date: Apr 2011

    Location: cheltenham

    Posts: 746
    I'm matt.

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    You didn't replace the electrolytic capacitors in the crossover with polypropylene did you?

    I have AP2s here and I agree with Martin regarding the balance. New bass drivers are worth it imo.

    I'd try your JPW gold monitors just to see if they have an even frequency response. If they don't sound right then you know the problem is elsewhere.

  9. #9
    Join Date: Jun 2014

    Location: Chorley Lancs

    Posts: 14,587
    I'm Steve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hayche View Post
    Have you walked all around your room? Is bass stronger anywhere in the room? You could be sat in a null
    Yes, there is a very obvious null in my room. speaker position is important, but so is listening position.
    I just dropped in, to see what condition my condition was in

    T/T: Inspire Monarch, X200 tonearm, Ortofon Quintet Blue. Phono: Project Tube Box CD: Marantz CD6006 (UK Edition); Amp: Musical Fidelity A5 Integrated.
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  10. #10
    Join Date: Feb 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 138
    I'm Simon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hayche View Post
    Have you walked all around your room? Is bass stronger anywhere in the room? You could be sat in a null
    Hi Howard. I've encountered this before (a very extreme case on one occasion) but the bass seems to be pretty evenly absent in this room.
    System 1: Marantz CD6000OSE, Beresford TC-7520, Marantz PM6010OSE, QED QNect II interconnect, Dual CS505 Mk3 turntable with Audiotechnica AT110E cartridge, Denon DRM-700A cassette deck, biwired B&W 685 S2 speakers on sand-filled Atacama SE24 supports.
    System 2: Marantz M-CR610, JPW Gold Monitors, Chord C-Screen speaker cables, NAS drive.
    System 3 (portable): Cayin N3
    My website: Foxysounds website
    My music: Foxysounds music

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