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Thread: Where has my bass gone? :-(

  1. #21
    Join Date: Feb 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 138
    I'm Simon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    In post #10 I suggested the surrounds might have stiffened up. The OP seemed to dismiss that idea.
    I said it seemed very unlikely because it was only about 3 years ago that I replaced them. However, it's not impossible. It also might be possible that the replacement surrounds were never very good (or that I botched the repair) and that the fact that after replacing them I thought things sounded great again was because any bass sounds way better than no bass at all, combined with confirmation bias and my possible inclination to put any remaining imperfection down to the fact that I was never able to set things up properly in the flat I was in at the time.

    I have now found the thread in this forum where I came for advice when the original surrounds disintegrated. Unfortunately many posts seem to be missing from the thread including the one where someone gave me a link to the supplier of the surrounds :-(

    My week is filling up with other stuff so apologies that I haven't had a chance to try everything that has been suggested yet. I do intend to get to it. I remain grateful for all the input.

    Regards,

    Simon.
    System 1: Marantz CD6000OSE, Beresford TC-7520, Marantz PM6010OSE, QED QNect II interconnect, Dual CS505 Mk3 turntable with Audiotechnica AT110E cartridge, Denon DRM-700A cassette deck, biwired B&W 685 S2 speakers on sand-filled Atacama SE24 supports.
    System 2: Marantz M-CR610, JPW Gold Monitors, Chord C-Screen speaker cables, NAS drive.
    System 3 (portable): Cayin N3
    My website: Foxysounds website
    My music: Foxysounds music

  2. #22
    Join Date: Feb 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 138
    I'm Simon.

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    Hi again.

    Yesterday I had a chance to try move things from room to room and try out many combinations. I won't list all the combinations I tried and my thoughts on each - instead I'll skip to my conclusion which is that there is bass coming from the AP2s but it doesn't have the punch that I believe I remember it having. Subjectively I hear more bass from my DT770 Pro headphones and my car audio system* than I do from the AP2s. Also the balance between the bass and the trebble is not right to my ears - the trebble is a bit forward and harsh sounding in a way I don't remember from before. The Gold Monitors are not producing more bass than the AP2s, in fact they are producing slightly less, but given the size difference between these speakers I would expect more from the AP2s. The AP2s sound a bit fatiguing. Speaker placement does not appear to be the problem.

    One thing I wasn't able to try with the AP2s was alternative speaker cable. The cable for my second system is routed behind and through bookcases which would have to be emptied to free it. However, I did try the gold monitors with the cable from the AP2s.

    It has been a few years now since I've had this set up properly during which time most of my listening has been on my car system during my lengthy daily commute so it is possible that to an extent I have just got used to and now prefer the sound of that system but I'm also obviously suspicious that the AP2s are not giving their best since my repair.

    I have a number of possible options for next steps and I think I'm going to try several:
    • Buy a second hand pair of speakers to use as a comparison. The Gold Monitors are not very useful in this respect because they don't have sufficient bass extension. I've seen a couple of possibilities on eBay including a pair of B&W DM602 S3s. If I don't like them I can sell them on again for little loss. Ideally I'd compare them first with a mint pair of AP2s but the odds of finding such a thing are very small indeed.
    • Buy some different speaker cables as a comparison. I see from another thread that there are very cheap cables that at least one member of the forum swears by so it would be foolish not to try them.
    • Shorten my current cables. At the moment my speaker cables are 10m long each side because of a room I had them in years ago. I could comfortably halve this now. The extra coiled up cable cannot be helping. Previously I've balked at this because it means losing the shop-fitted banana plugs on one end but I expect any benefit to be gained from them is lost from 5m of extra cable.


    I'm looking forward to trying new things!

    Thanks again,

    Simon.

    *Stock 2004 Honda Civic speakers but with a replacement Pioneer head unit of my choosing.
    System 1: Marantz CD6000OSE, Beresford TC-7520, Marantz PM6010OSE, QED QNect II interconnect, Dual CS505 Mk3 turntable with Audiotechnica AT110E cartridge, Denon DRM-700A cassette deck, biwired B&W 685 S2 speakers on sand-filled Atacama SE24 supports.
    System 2: Marantz M-CR610, JPW Gold Monitors, Chord C-Screen speaker cables, NAS drive.
    System 3 (portable): Cayin N3
    My website: Foxysounds website
    My music: Foxysounds music

  3. #23
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,779
    I'm Martin.

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    I think you should try different speakers first. The B&W 602 are pretty good if you can find some for a ton or less. I wouldn't pay more than that. There's a zillion second hand speakers out there, it's a buyer's market.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  4. #24
    Join Date: Apr 2011

    Location: cheltenham

    Posts: 746
    I'm matt.

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    I had Gold monitors and I thought they had good bass for a sealed box speaker. I really don't think it's a speaker problem although a ported speaker would probably help. Smaller sealed speakers usually have a hump at around 100hz to give the impression of more bass. A good ported speaker will have a more linear low frequency response down to cut-off (More output in the 50hz to 70hz range) but the lows usually drop off much faster. Subjectively a ported speaker often has more thump but that obviously depends on the speaker.

    I'd be surprised if the harsh treble came from the speakers. You can buy brand new tweeters for about £15 each to rule that out. Do any of your cables have silver in them? That can give harsh high frequencies. A Quad 306 has good punchy bass, clean mids and very smooth highs. They only cost around £200. Couple that to a little bear passive pre amp off ebay for £25 and then all you need is some extra interconnect cables. Flashback sales do copper RCA cables that sound pretty neutral to my ears.

    I personally don't like B&W 60X speakers and much prefer tha Kef coda 8. They have much better integrated and smoother treble and the mids are more open. Bass is good but wont be as tight as the AP2.

  5. #25
    Join Date: Feb 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 138
    I'm Simon.

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    Thanks everyone - the problem is now solved. I took my AP2s with me to Sevenoaks Sound & Vision in Cambridge this afternoon and compared them to a couple of other pairs of speakers. I came away with a pair of B&W 685 S2s. I've spent a couple of hours this evening listening to them and I'm really pleased with the sound even though they're not even properly run in yet - a big improvement on the AP2s.

    Of course I still don't know for certain whether new bass drivers for the AP2s would have improved things but sadly I can't buy the replacement bass drivers and then return them if I don't like them so to spend £150 trying that out was a bit of a risk. In the end I spent a lot more than that but at least I knew I'd solved the problem at the point that I parted with my cash.

    The people at Sevenoaks were very helpful and accommodating. All in all, a good day :-)

    Simon.
    System 1: Marantz CD6000OSE, Beresford TC-7520, Marantz PM6010OSE, QED QNect II interconnect, Dual CS505 Mk3 turntable with Audiotechnica AT110E cartridge, Denon DRM-700A cassette deck, biwired B&W 685 S2 speakers on sand-filled Atacama SE24 supports.
    System 2: Marantz M-CR610, JPW Gold Monitors, Chord C-Screen speaker cables, NAS drive.
    System 3 (portable): Cayin N3
    My website: Foxysounds website
    My music: Foxysounds music

  6. #26
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: Surrey

    Posts: 7,103
    I'm Rob.

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    Could it be that after the new surrounds were fitted the position and neg connections were inadvertently swapped on one speaker.
    Buy Bose...And get your parking validated!.

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    No Highs...No Lows....It Must Be Bose!

  7. #27
    Join Date: Apr 2011

    Location: cheltenham

    Posts: 746
    I'm matt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Puffin View Post
    Could it be that after the new surrounds were fitted the position and neg connections were inadvertently swapped on one speaker.
    Got to be worth checking. Also worth checking that the enclosures are perfectly sealed with no air leaks.

  8. #28
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: Surrey

    Posts: 7,103
    I'm Rob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fatmarley View Post
    Got to be worth checking. Also worth checking that the enclosures are perfectly sealed with no air leaks.
    POSITIVE.....not position....didn't see that when I posted!
    Buy Bose...And get your parking validated!.

    https://youtu.be/ZCBe7-6rw4M

    No Highs...No Lows....It Must Be Bose!

  9. #29
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 13,240
    I'm Adrian.

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    Hello Simon

    Reading though the thread it sounds like you've tried most of the obvious. so here are a few not so obvious that might be worth trying. Systems don't usually just loose bass.or other frequencies.

    1. Bass can be elusive if the room causes reflection and cancelling standing waves. What I mean about this is if the room is a tricky shape then the positioning of the speakers and where you sit may be critical. My listening room is 22 foot by 12 foot and have to have the speakers 62" from the wall and then I have to sit about half way down the room for the bass sweet spot or at the other end with curtains drawn to stop reflections.

    2. Please don't take this the wrong way but have you really lost bass or have your ears? If you have a modern mobile download a dB meter that can measure levels across the frequency range. alternatively there is a very good bit of free software call REW which you can measure you speakers output accurately. you could download a free hearing test software.

    I hope this may shed some light

    Regards

    Adrian
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs: Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges, Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:- Marantz SA-KI Pearl CD player, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi+ Pro, Buffalo NAS Drive

    Amplification:- AudioValve Sunilda phono stage, Krell KSP-7B pre-amp, Krell KSA-80 power amp

    Output: Wilson Benesch Vector speakers, KLH Ultimate One Headphones

    Cables: Tellurium Q Ultra Black II RCA & Chord Epic 2 RCA, various speaker leads, & links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

  10. #30
    Join Date: Feb 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 138
    I'm Simon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Puffin View Post
    Could it be that after the new surrounds were fitted the position and neg connections were inadvertently swapped on one speaker.
    No - I tested that. The speakers are biwired so it's really easy to invert the phase on a single driver without re-opening the boxes. They are definitely in phase.
    System 1: Marantz CD6000OSE, Beresford TC-7520, Marantz PM6010OSE, QED QNect II interconnect, Dual CS505 Mk3 turntable with Audiotechnica AT110E cartridge, Denon DRM-700A cassette deck, biwired B&W 685 S2 speakers on sand-filled Atacama SE24 supports.
    System 2: Marantz M-CR610, JPW Gold Monitors, Chord C-Screen speaker cables, NAS drive.
    System 3 (portable): Cayin N3
    My website: Foxysounds website
    My music: Foxysounds music

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