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Thread: Adventures into turntable differences (or how to become a NURD!)

  1. #1
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 13,240
    I'm Adrian.

    Default Adventures into turntable differences (or how to become a NURD!)

    There was something just not quite right with the sound I was getting from my system and I could not put my finger on it. I hope you find the folowing interesting.

    So as I am home getting used to the first of 2 new drugs and have the time I thought I would check something out. I decided to get the original Gyrodec platter down from the roof and do some back to back comparisons with the Orbe platter. So I chose a piece of music carefully that had lots of dynamics, bass, drums, cymbals and natural instruments. This was 2 tracks from St Germain - Tourist, So Flute and the beginning 30 secs of La Goutte D’Or.

    Initial Listening findings

    A bit of a shock the system with the Orbe platter sounded a bit flat and something was missing in definition, how could this be for an upgrade? Across the instruments it all sounded a bit dull to be honest, and the bottom end sound a little woolly, I’m struggling to describe it properly, but it still was not quite right IMO.

    I carefully switched over to the Gyrodec platter and put on the same tracks. Hey an instant change and the music suddenly came to life, but why surely the platter cannot have such a dramatic effect and everything I had read was that the Orbe platter was supposed to be an improvement, although some do not like the it overall.

    Investigations

    I remembered at a friends recently a brief discussion on the affects of arm height on the affect on sound and so I decided to investigate this. As I had the Gyrodec platter on the turntable I measured to see if the arm was parallel to the record surface and I found it was about 0.25mm down at the rear. Now something I had already noticed was that I had slightly less thread available for the record clamp with this setup(with the same record). So this seems to indicate that the Gyrodec platter is slightly higher on the bearing.

    I switched over to the Orbe platter and put on the same old record to measure the arm height and now I found that the arm was riding slightly high at the rear, about 0.3mm. So could this be the answer in the quite significant difference in sound. When I originally fitted the Orbe platter I thought I had checked and adjusted the arm height carefully, but maybe I got it wrong.

    Next Steps

    So what to do first? I adjusted the arm height very carefully with the Orbe platter in situ. On with the same tracks, yes there was a significant improvement, piano better defined (I could now pick out notes making chords), drums and cymbals had better attack, bass was better defined.

    I decided to ring Michell and check that I could confidently use the spindle that came with the Orbe with the Gyrodec platter and they confirmed that you can. During the conversation I mentioned not having much thread with the clamp to do it up. They asked if I was using the small ring(about 2" diameter) which came with the Orbe platter and fits in centre, which I have been, they said that this was to be only used with thin vinyl as it then allows the clamp to pushdown on the record and clamp it down to the platter. I am not sure if this is in the instructions with an Orbe upgrade or with an Orbe for that matter, so a heads up if you have one of these.

    Is the Orbe now better than the Gyrodec one?

    To establish this I decided to refit the Orbe yet again and adjust the arm height specifically for it and re-listen. Result was that they now sounded very similar to each other but I thought that there are subtle differences.

    I carried on with several listens, using more tracks and switching backwards and forwards between the platters.

    Final Conclusion

    Well its all very difficult to assess, but I have come to form an opinion based of the overall sound and musical impression coming from the system. I would say that the Gyrodec platter sounds more lively and gives the impression of a more open sound/feel to the music, maybe slightly more forward. The bass is still there in a controled and good way. With the Orbe platter it gives a rendition that can only be described as slightly laid back, perhaps a bit more low end bass (but very subjective to judge) , everything is there and it still sounds good just subtly different.

    Which is better, a very hard question to answer, however I have decided to stay with the original Gyrodec platter for now, maybe I will tire of it and I will revert to the Orbe one, we shall see.

    Lessons Learned

    So one thing this has taught me is that small changes to a turntable setup can have big impact, getting the arm height right for example made a big improvement to the sound with both platters, even though I thought I had it right it wasn't. I suspect that with some careful tinkering with cartridge alignment and arm alignment that an optimum musical rendition could be reached, I did check them with the supplied Michel tools and it looks good. However I think I would like some very accurate measuring tools to undertake and know it was perfect.

    With the risk of opening possible old discussions which is best pure Gyrodec or upgraded Gyrodec with Orbe platter upgrade I would be interested in any opinions on this.

    Also any advise on accurate set up of a Gyrodec with SME IV would be useful.
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs: Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges, Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:- Marantz SA-KI Pearl CD player, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi+ Pro, Buffalo NAS Drive

    Amplification:- AudioValve Sunilda phono stage, Krell KSP-7B pre-amp, Krell KSA-80 power amp

    Output: Wilson Benesch Vector speakers, KLH Ultimate One Headphones

    Cables: Tellurium Q Ultra Black II RCA & Chord Epic 2 RCA, various speaker leads, & links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

  2. #2
    Join Date: Sep 2014

    Location: brighton uk.

    Posts: 4,737
    I'm jamie.

    Default

    what cartridge are you using?
    yes small changes DO make a difference,there is a sweet spot if its vta/sra related,what are both platters made from? that can also influence the sound.
    My System
    John Wood KT88 Amp.
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    Yamaha NS1000m Speakers

  3. #3
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: Down South

    Posts: 2,413
    I'm Neal.

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    I seem to recall the platters are quite different in weight, maybe the suspension needs resetting.
    Listening in a Foo free Zone...

    Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

  4. #4
    Join Date: Aug 2018

    Location: London Knightsbridge

    Posts: 414
    I'm Nari.

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    Platter materials truly make a big difference, I have heard multiple platters and the differences can be staggering, golden rule everything makes a difference in Vinyl replay weather we like the difference is one thing. I know someone who has had 15 platters individually made for his sme model 30 currently using a stainless, ebony platter and the differences are huge. Manufacturers usually have limited resources to experiment with all the options always thought that there could be a good market for platter upgrades for a sort off mass market deck like the michell.
    Most important and used Walker Black Diamond Etsuro Gold, Micro Seiki 8000mk2 Kondo special V12 Tiger Eye, Fidelity Research FR 66 Shindo spu, EMT 927, sme 312 aluminium. Fidelity research fr66, Sme 3012 mk1, Sme V, Ikeda 407 IT Sme Model 30/2/Dynavector 507 Kodo Beat Turntable Airtangent 10B modified Fidelity fr66s Etsuro Cartridge . Kondo Gakuoh Mk1 powers G70 Pre,Audio Tekne TFA-8695PCS pre Audio Tekne TEA 8695 Phono. Lfd Battery Phono Stage heavily custom rebuilt by Dr Richard Bews, Tharx Phono Stage. Lfd Master Dual Biamp power amp, Lfd Anniversary master preamp. Shindo Latour Field Coil. Rockport Cygnus Biamped, Voigt Domestic Corner Horns/ Feastex Fildcoils. LFD Custom silver Ribbons. LFD Diamond Vipor Mk2 interconnects, Lfd Golden Cobra interconnect. Koetsu blue lace mono special order, Koetsu burma jade mono special order.

  5. #5
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 13,240
    I'm Adrian.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jamie123 View Post
    what cartridge are you using?
    yes small changes DO make a difference,there is a sweet spot if its vta/sra related,what are both platters made from? that can also influence the sound.
    The cartridge is a Michell Cusis which is effectively a Benz Micro Glider S but is housed in a different composition body.
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs: Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges, Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:- Marantz SA-KI Pearl CD player, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi+ Pro, Buffalo NAS Drive

    Amplification:- AudioValve Sunilda phono stage, Krell KSP-7B pre-amp, Krell KSA-80 power amp

    Output: Wilson Benesch Vector speakers, KLH Ultimate One Headphones

    Cables: Tellurium Q Ultra Black II RCA & Chord Epic 2 RCA, various speaker leads, & links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

  6. #6
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 13,240
    I'm Adrian.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vrajbasi View Post
    Platter materials truly make a big difference, I have heard multiple platters and the differences can be staggering, golden rule everything makes a difference in Vinyl replay weather we like the difference is one thing. I know someone who has had 15 platters individually made for his sme model 30 currently using a stainless, ebony platter and the differences are huge. Manufacturers usually have limited resources to experiment with all the options always thought that there could be a good market for platter upgrades for a sort off mass market deck like the michell.
    Yes I think your quite right, both look to be made of the same acrylic/vinyl platter but the Orbe version has a deep skirt instead of the brass weights that the Gyrodec is famous for. The Gyrodec SE weighs in at 10KG and the Orbe SE is 13.5 kg, so an increase of 3.5kg primarily due to the platter.

    In answer to NRG's question, yes I did check the suspension with each platter and it was good.

    The difference between the two is quite interesting, my understanding is that the prime difference between and an ungraded Gyrodec SE (ie with Orbe platter and damping) an Orbe SE is the Spider double chassis, suspended pendulum subchassis, whereas the Gyrodec has Spider chassis, suspended stable subchassis. It would be very interesting to be able to compare the two back to back to see if the full Orbe actually was better.
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs: Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges, Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:- Marantz SA-KI Pearl CD player, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi+ Pro, Buffalo NAS Drive

    Amplification:- AudioValve Sunilda phono stage, Krell KSP-7B pre-amp, Krell KSA-80 power amp

    Output: Wilson Benesch Vector speakers, KLH Ultimate One Headphones

    Cables: Tellurium Q Ultra Black II RCA & Chord Epic 2 RCA, various speaker leads, & links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

  7. #7
    Join Date: Aug 2018

    Location: London Knightsbridge

    Posts: 414
    I'm Nari.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AJSki2fly View Post
    Yes I think your quite right, both look to be made of the same acrylic/vinyl platter but the Orbe version has a deep skirt instead of the brass weights that the Gyrodec is famous for. The Gyrodec SE weighs in at 10KG and the Orbe SE is 13.5 kg, so an increase of 3.5kg primarily due to the platter.

    In answer to NRG's question, yes I did check the suspension with each platter and it was good.

    The difference between the two is quite interesting, my understanding is that the prime difference between and an ungraded Gyrodec SE (ie with Orbe platter and damping) an Orbe SE is the Spider double chassis, suspended pendulum subchassis, whereas the Gyrodec has Spider chassis, suspended stable subchassis. It would be very interesting to be able to compare the two back to back to see if the full Orbe actually was better.
    i know the Michell turntables quite well having owned a few and have a Neighbour who has the orbe se and gyro se both with sme arms, we have compared the two deck and also compared the gyro se with HR Supply with the orbe platter to the full blown orbe se. The gyro se has a sense of enthusiam and dynamic range which is quite nice, the orbe platter does add body and a sweeter midrange its rather nice. The orbe se sounds very different its got a sense of pace of the gyro but the sound is fuller and bass is way way deeper its also got a grip to the sound which is rather special compared to the gyro se, its like the whole soundstage id wider. My friend now keeps the Gyro Se with its brass weight platter and the the orbe as it is. He loves his gyro for the brass weights. He has two sme V arms bought from a dealer in watford who specialises in Sme and has two Koetsu red sig cartridges bought together.

    I have to add the two motors sound different as we have swapped them around the materials for the cases are different the orbe motor seems warmer and more solid while the gyro a bit more air.
    Most important and used Walker Black Diamond Etsuro Gold, Micro Seiki 8000mk2 Kondo special V12 Tiger Eye, Fidelity Research FR 66 Shindo spu, EMT 927, sme 312 aluminium. Fidelity research fr66, Sme 3012 mk1, Sme V, Ikeda 407 IT Sme Model 30/2/Dynavector 507 Kodo Beat Turntable Airtangent 10B modified Fidelity fr66s Etsuro Cartridge . Kondo Gakuoh Mk1 powers G70 Pre,Audio Tekne TFA-8695PCS pre Audio Tekne TEA 8695 Phono. Lfd Battery Phono Stage heavily custom rebuilt by Dr Richard Bews, Tharx Phono Stage. Lfd Master Dual Biamp power amp, Lfd Anniversary master preamp. Shindo Latour Field Coil. Rockport Cygnus Biamped, Voigt Domestic Corner Horns/ Feastex Fildcoils. LFD Custom silver Ribbons. LFD Diamond Vipor Mk2 interconnects, Lfd Golden Cobra interconnect. Koetsu blue lace mono special order, Koetsu burma jade mono special order.

  8. #8
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 13,240
    I'm Adrian.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vrajbasi View Post
    i know the Michell turntables quite well having owned a few and have a Neighbour who has the orbe se and gyro se both with sme arms, we have compared the two deck and also compared the gyro se with HR Supply with the orbe platter to the full blown orbe se. The gyro se has a sense of enthusiam and dynamic range which is quite nice, the orbe platter does add body and a sweeter midrange its rather nice. The orbe se sounds very different its got a sense of pace of the gyro but the sound is fuller and bass is way way deeper its also got a grip to the sound which is rather special compared to the gyro se, its like the whole soundstage id wider. My friend now keeps the Gyro Se with its brass weight platter and the the orbe as it is. He loves his gyro for the brass weights. He has two sme V arms bought from a dealer in watford who specialises in Sme and has two Koetsu red sig cartridges bought together.

    I have to add the two motors sound different as we have swapped them around the materials for the cases are different the orbe motor seems warmer and more solid while the gyro a bit more air.
    Thanks for your thoughts on the Orbe versus Gyrodec, your descriptions n is much as I thought. Yes I agree that the bass is deeper with the Orbe platter on a Gyro, but I wonder if this in the Gyrodec in some way clouds the naturalness of a standard Gyro. I listened to a few more albums today and all I enjoyed musically, but one or two tracks seemed slightly light, maybe I’m missing the warmth of the Orbe platter. I’ll leave things as they are for know and then maybe switch back and have another listen.

    By the way the dealer in Watford is a mutual friend.

    Regards
    Adrian
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs: Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges, Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:- Marantz SA-KI Pearl CD player, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi+ Pro, Buffalo NAS Drive

    Amplification:- AudioValve Sunilda phono stage, Krell KSP-7B pre-amp, Krell KSA-80 power amp

    Output: Wilson Benesch Vector speakers, KLH Ultimate One Headphones

    Cables: Tellurium Q Ultra Black II RCA & Chord Epic 2 RCA, various speaker leads, & links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

  9. #9
    Join Date: Aug 2018

    Location: London Knightsbridge

    Posts: 414
    I'm Nari.

    Default

    You might find adjusting the VTA for each platter helps to bring out the best like not sticking to parallel eg up and the back and slightly less tracking force for the orbe platter and lower back for the gyro, analogue is weird all these difference make a big impact on the sound. As far as natural sound goes we all perceive differently I see warmer which can mean a fuller bass as more natural while some might see life and dynamics as more natural.

    Good luck with your experiments and hope you find audio nirvana for me its been a life long struggle.

    Ahh yes the dealer in watford has been supplying me high end turntables since 1993 not a conventional dealer to say the least he has a vast amount of experience and knowledge in the rare and unknown and almost tried everything and can source the rarest hi end turntables on this planet, found me my mint Micro Seiki 8000mk2 230v all most impossible these days and a Mint EMT 927. Try not to visit too often these days as could prove expensive have a Kodo Beat turntable on loan at the moment have to stop trying all these goodies.

    Regards

    Nari
    Most important and used Walker Black Diamond Etsuro Gold, Micro Seiki 8000mk2 Kondo special V12 Tiger Eye, Fidelity Research FR 66 Shindo spu, EMT 927, sme 312 aluminium. Fidelity research fr66, Sme 3012 mk1, Sme V, Ikeda 407 IT Sme Model 30/2/Dynavector 507 Kodo Beat Turntable Airtangent 10B modified Fidelity fr66s Etsuro Cartridge . Kondo Gakuoh Mk1 powers G70 Pre,Audio Tekne TFA-8695PCS pre Audio Tekne TEA 8695 Phono. Lfd Battery Phono Stage heavily custom rebuilt by Dr Richard Bews, Tharx Phono Stage. Lfd Master Dual Biamp power amp, Lfd Anniversary master preamp. Shindo Latour Field Coil. Rockport Cygnus Biamped, Voigt Domestic Corner Horns/ Feastex Fildcoils. LFD Custom silver Ribbons. LFD Diamond Vipor Mk2 interconnects, Lfd Golden Cobra interconnect. Koetsu blue lace mono special order, Koetsu burma jade mono special order.

  10. #10
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 13,240
    I'm Adrian.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vrajbasi View Post
    You might find adjusting the VTA for each platter helps to bring out the best like not sticking to parallel eg up and the back and slightly less tracking force for the orbe platter and lower back for the gyro, analogue is weird all these difference make a big impact on the sound. As far as natural sound goes we all perceive differently I see warmer which can mean a fuller bass as more natural while some might see life and dynamics as more natural.

    Good luck with your experiments and hope you find audio nirvana for me its been a life long struggle.

    Ahh yes the dealer in watford has been supplying me high end turntables since 1993 not a conventional dealer to say the least he has a vast amount of experience and knowledge in the rare and unknown and almost tried everything and can source the rarest hi end turntables on this planet, found me my mint Micro Seiki 8000mk2 230v all most impossible these days and a Mint EMT 927. Try not to visit too often these days as could prove expensive have a Kodo Beat turntable on loan at the moment have to stop trying all these goodies.

    Regards

    Nari
    Funny you should mention the VTA, I looked and thought about it long and hard this morning and decided to do some serious listening. Firstly with the standard Gyrodec platter, with chassis damped and using the Michell Orbe screw down record weight. Then with the Orbe platter fitted with careful attention to the VTA of the arm. I measured the front and rear arm height very carefully in each instance and ensured that it was parallel in each case to get a like for like comparison. Having selected the tracks I wanted to use for the review the NURD in me created a spreadsheet where I could score each track I listened to. Sad I know but at least I tried to review it subjectively, not on I thought it sounded like that now it sounds like this appraisal. Anyway the results are below. When scoring I did truly try to be honest and subjective based on what I heard.

    To sum up I think you are right, the other day I heard life and dynamics in the standard Gyrodec and thought this was a better rendition of the music, but actually as I listened to the standard setup I thought it was lacking something. Hence why I decided to review systematically. The Gyrodec with the Orbe platter has more bass and low midrange, all the detail is still there as with the basic Gyrodec setup, however the introduction of the Orbe platter gives the final rendition a more rounded/complete sound IMO. So I have changed my mind.

    The Watford dealer must have been pretty young back in 1993, I only met him 2.5 years ago on recommendation by a friend. He did persuade me to purchase my deck arm, cartridge and Renaisance RA01 amps. I found him very helpful, and the resulting system with the Impulse H2 speakers I find is very musical. I speak with him every so often and have managed to resist changing/upgrading, she who must be obeyed does not appreciate the holy grail of musical fidelity much less the cost of achieving it.

    Regards

    Adrian



    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs: Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges, Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:- Marantz SA-KI Pearl CD player, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi+ Pro, Buffalo NAS Drive

    Amplification:- AudioValve Sunilda phono stage, Krell KSP-7B pre-amp, Krell KSA-80 power amp

    Output: Wilson Benesch Vector speakers, KLH Ultimate One Headphones

    Cables: Tellurium Q Ultra Black II RCA & Chord Epic 2 RCA, various speaker leads, & links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

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