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Thread: What's the purpose of a preamp?

  1. #61
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Me neither, *unless* that's how the recording in question is meant to sound. All I want is to extract, as faithfully as possible, the musical information embedded onto whatever source material it is I'm listening to, with as little 'signature' as possible, of the equipment used, superimposed onto that sound

    Marco.
    I'm not interested in that at all. I want to enjoy the music on the record. There are ways to 'faithfully extract' what's on the recording - every detail - and still have it sound less than enjoyable.

  2. #62
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Not in my experience, *if* that goal has been genuinely achieved. Otherwise, all you've created is some sort of contrived/coloured sound, and that's fundamentally not hi-fi, or indeed what I got into this game for

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  3. #63
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Your Croft is very good indeed, but I have not preferred it in the 3 times we have baked off now - it's different but not preferable (to me). The ML I have not baked off against but it does the job exactly the way I prefer it done. I don't need to hear it in my own system to be sure of that. Also you can buy the ML which is not the case with your Croft, as isn't really a Croft anymore, is it?
    Fairy muff, but it's pretty hard to properly judge either the Croft or the ML in an alien system, at a bake-off or otherwise. The only way you can get properly to grips with something is when hearing it your own system, thus judging it against a known reference.

    That's all I meant

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  4. #64
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,770
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Fairy muff, but it's pretty hard to properly judge either the Croft or the ML in an alien system, at a bake-off or otherwise. The only way you can get properly to grips with something is when hearing it your own system, thus judging it against a known reference.

    That's all I meant

    Marco.
    Yes, I only have comparative assessments to go by, that is true. After 30 years in this game, man and boy, I sort of feel that is enough experience to be able to take a punt with confidence. 'Gut instinct' as you're always saying.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  5. #65
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,770
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    I'm not interested in that at all. I want to enjoy the music on the record. There are ways to 'faithfully extract' what's on the recording - every detail - and still have it sound less than enjoyable.
    If it wasn't for the EAR pre-amp you would have a pretty handy studio system though. I've heard the RFC Canterbury and they are by far the least coloured Tannoy DC I've heard. And the Radford power amp needs no comment. So you've really got 90% of the way their and then just ameliorated it to your personal taste with the pre. IMO exactly the way to do it. Aim for neutral then ameliorate to taste. Getting the presentation exactly how you want it is the real 'Art Of Sound' and it isn't easy.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  6. #66
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Yes, I only have comparative assessments to go by, that is true. After 30 years in this game, man and boy, I sort of feel that is enough experience to be able to take a punt with confidence. 'Gut instinct' as you're always saying.
    No worries, but regardless, it wouldn't do any harm to test your gut instinct in the 'real world', as it were. Whenever I've done that, I've usually found it a rather enlightening experience

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  7. #67
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,770
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    No worries, but regardless, it wouldn't do any harm to test your gut instinct in the 'real world', as it were. Whenever I've done that, I've usually found it a rather enlightening experience

    Marco.
    Okay look at the Cranage show we were at the other month. That Welsh blokes system that you really loved? No way I'd have it. Nowt wrong with it just not the sort of presentation I like. I was keen on the Lampizator system, You weren't that much for it. There wasn't any difference in quality between them, but the presentation was quite different. Once you are beyond a certain level of quality it gets down to personal taste, there's no automatic 'best' or 'better'. I think that applies to any component, not just pre-amps.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  8. #68
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: South Wales

    Posts: 9,151
    I'm NotTakingLifeTooSeriouslyTheseDays.

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    Yes, I agree on the series type being the one to go for, I have tried all three types over the years, and have stuck with series type Attenuators in both my Solid State, and Valve preamps.
    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    The Khozmo stepped attenuators look to be extremely well-engineered, but I would advise anyone considering one to choose carefully. They do three different types of attenuators which they call shunt, ladder and series.

    In my opinion the series type is the best. The ladder type is really just the same as the series type but switches resistors unnecessarily which introduces an additional switch contact. The rationale for this type of attenuator is (presumably) that there are fewer resistors in the circuit at any one time, and fewer resistors must be better. No, more resistors is the better option in my opinion because there's less voltage dropped across any one resistor therefore less distortion, and thermal noise is reduced slightly by using more resistors.
    The least desirable is the so-called shunt type. This type of attenuator has no merit in my opinion because the input impedance varies wildly with the volume setting and the output impedance is always higher than it needs to be. The rationale for this type of attenuator is that "there's only one resistor in the signal path". Well, no there isn't. It betrays a basic misunderstanding of electronics to believe there is.
    Anyone who has tried a "shunt" attenuator passive pre-amp and found it wanting should try again with a series attenuator.
    "Today scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"
    Nikola Tesla



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  9. #69
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Okay look at the Cranage show we were at the other month. That Welsh blokes system that you really loved? No way I'd have it. Nowt wrong with it just not the sort of presentation I like. I was keen on the Lampizator system, You weren't that much for it. There wasn't any difference in quality between them, but the presentation was quite different. Once you are beyond a certain level of quality it gets down to personal taste, there's no automatic 'best' or 'better'. I think that applies to any component, not just pre-amps.
    I *completely* agree. However, that doesn't negate the notion of only being able to judge something properly, after hearing it in the context of your own system.

    I mean, I don't know about you, but if the option were available to me before buying any piece of kit, of trying it my system first, then I'd always take it, regardless of any gut instinct I'd formed on it beforehand.

    At the end of the day, whatever my gut instincts said, I'd never conclusively judge ANY piece of equipment until, or unless, I'd heard it in my own system, and thus against my current established reference. For me, that's the only way you know for sure what something is doing

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  10. #70
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    If it wasn't for the EAR pre-amp you would have a pretty handy studio system though. I've heard the RFC Canterbury and they are by far the least coloured Tannoy DC I've heard. And the Radford power amp needs no comment. So you've really got 90% of the way their and then just ameliorated it to your personal taste with the pre. IMO exactly the way to do it. Aim for neutral then ameliorate to taste. Getting the presentation exactly how you want it is the real 'Art Of Sound' and it isn't easy.
    Interesting comment. Actually the EAR pre has holes for rack mounting ....

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