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Thread: What's the purpose of a preamp?

  1. #31
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    I'm Martin.

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    The only problem with active pre-amps is that most of them are poor and the good ones cost a bomb even second-hand.

    Tom: I've listened to many passive pre-amps of all types and one thing I have never heard is one sounding harsh so I'm interested in which one that was and in what set-up.


    I'm inclined to agree with Alan that a passive does maybe sound slightly soft, loses a bit of the leading edge. With a good one it is fractional and you can compensate for that to an extent with the speakers. I think that softness also accounts for the 'lack of drive' some perceive. But that perception will vary from system to system because there are the source, power amp and speakers to consider which will all have their own balance vis a vis 'leading edges'. Speakers especially.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  2. #32
    Join Date: May 2015

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    I'm Panos.

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    I understand that Khozmo has rebranded and is now offering its products under the Hattor brand. http://www.hattor.com
    Has anyone had any experience with a Hattor passive preamp?
    Thanks.
    System1: Lenco L75 with custom plinth, SLAT, sph bearing, SG4 external power supply + Alfred Bokrand AB-309 tonearm + Denon DL103R (aluminum body) + Well Tempered 12" tonearm clone + Denon DL103R (wooden body), ASR Mini Basis Exclusive HV, Marantz CD6005, LAB12 DAC1 SE+, Hattor BIG passive + active pre, Lab12 Suono power amp, Falcon LS3/5a Gold Badge, LAB12 Gordian, Belden 8428, Black Cat Red Level Triode, LAB12 Knack MkII

    System 2: Roksan Xerxes original (HiFi Inspire plinth) with Maxon ReMax motor + Audiomods Series6 + Ortofon Cadenza Black microridge retipped, ASR Mini Basis Exclusive, Marantz CD6003, Croft Micro25R + Series7R monoblocks (110W/ea), Harbeth SHL5 Plus 40th Anniv.

    System 3: Marantz CD6003, Croft SuperMicroII ('R' spec by Croft, Tesla E83CC in phono)+ Series7, Snell Type EII (with bypass caps, new internal wiring, WBT nextgen 0703Cu), Mark Grant HDX1, Atlas Hyper 3.0

  3. #33
    Join Date: Apr 2008

    Location: Warrington

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    I'm Neil.

    Default What's the purpose of a preamp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    The only problem with active pre-amps is that most of them are poor and the good ones cost a bomb even second-hand.

    Tom: I've listened to many passive pre-amps of all types and one thing I have never heard is one sounding harsh so I'm interested in which one that was and in what set-up.


    I'm inclined to agree with Alan that a passive does maybe sound slightly soft, loses a bit of the leading edge. With a good one it is fractional and you can compensate for that to an extent with the speakers. I think that softness also accounts for the 'lack of drive' some perceive. But that perception will vary from system to system because there are the source, power amp and speakers to consider which will all have their own balance vis a vis 'leading edges'. Speakers especially.
    Good points, and I’m inclined to agree. A similar thing occurs with output transformers, or SUTs. All things being equal you can lose a bit of the very deepest bass and a bit of leading edge, but gain in a less strained and natural sound, better soundstage. It is all about how all the components work together.
    Mana Acoustics Racks / Bright Star IsoNodes Decoupling >> Allo DigiOne Player >> Pedja Rogic's Audial Model S DAC + Pioneer PL-71 turntable / Vista Audio phono-1 mk II / Denon PCL-5 headshell / Reson Reca >> LFD DLS >> LFD PA2M (SE) >> Royd RR3s.

  4. #34
    Join Date: Feb 2008

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    I'm NotTakingLifeTooSeriouslyTheseDays.

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    I have to disagree with the last few posts, you cannot make up for shorfalls that are obviously present in the begining ie; from the source, or from any form of attenuation' further down the line, if the leading edges have been notably softend at the begining, then nothing further down the line is going to make up for that!
    "Today scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"
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  5. #35
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

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    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Indeed, Anthony, which brings us to what Martin wrote yesterday:

    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    I'm inclined to agree with Alan that a passive does maybe sound slightly soft, loses a bit of the leading edge. With a good one it is fractional and you can compensate for that to an extent with the speakers.
    The bit in bold of course refers to the point just made. Once it's gone, it's GONE.

    No speakers can make up for any signal degradation/information loss further up the chain. All they can do is alter the tonal presentation, and perhaps add some 'zing', but it won't genuinely address any loss of leading edge definition, upstream. That's the unfortunate reality.

    In terms of the first sentence, Martin. that's quite a step change from your position when this subject was last discussed, only weeks ago, and where you were adamant no such 'softness' existed...

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


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  6. #36
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yomanze View Post
    A similar thing occurs with output transformers, or SUTs. All things being equal you can lose a bit of the very deepest bass and a bit of leading edge, but gain in a less strained and natural sound, better soundstage. It is all about how all the components work together.
    BUT...you've still lost what you've described was missing - and so, short of addressing the issue *at source* [by amplifying the signal in a different way], nothing else is going to cure the problem.

    However, I agree that audio is often about choosing your trade-offs, and that's often all we can do, but as long as you realise that's what it is: a trade-off, not a 'fix' or replacement for what was missing, offered by something else which did that particular job better!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  7. #37
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: fuck off

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    I'm fuckoff.

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    I Agree Ant, you can’t put back what’s lost previously in the chain.

    I’ve got a TVC in the loop and absolutely love the thing; having said that I’ve heard some spectacular (alas not cheap) active preamps. I’m not in one camp or another.

    See if you can get a demo, I can vouch for the quality and service of John at Music First Audio - he’s a great guy to deal with and I’ve been happily using his products for about five years now.

  8. #38
    Join Date: Aug 2011

    Location: Coventry, England UK

    Posts: 534
    I'm Simon.

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    Myself, I don't believe in the ''softness'' from a passive pre (or lack of leading edge). Dynamics on my system are superb and nothing lost from when I was using an active pre (and I did comparisons before boxing up the active in favour of passive).

    For me it comes down to compatability. The power amp must have a high input impedance and all sources a very low impedance, with the pot in between. Even then it could just be that by adding a gain stage and different flavour of sound by using an active that some people prefer. Nothing wrong with that of course but to make blanket statements about passives lacking dynamics and/or drive is not fair.

  9. #39
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Hi Simon,

    There was a lengthy discussion on this very subject recently, see here (read roughly from the following page onwards): https://theartofsound.net/forum/show...-valves/page20

    ...and where many of us commented on our experiences with passive and active preamps, and how the 'softness' we perceive might be caused.

    My system (on paper) is tailor-made for a passive to shine, yet my preferred choice of active preamp (modded Croft, valve-based) still makes even the best passives I've heard, in comparison, sound 'soft'.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  10. #40
    Join Date: Dec 2014

    Location: UK, inactive

    Posts: 1,570
    I'm inactive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pankon View Post
    I understand that Khozmo has rebranded and is now offering its products under the Hattor brand. http://www.hattor.com
    Has anyone had any experience with a Hattor passive preamp?
    Thanks.
    Are you sure ??
    The Khozmo website appears to be very much open for business and selling Khozmo branded attenuators:

    https://khozmo.com/index.html

    I could go through the entire ordering process right up to PayPal payment without a glitch.

    Hattor is also based in Warsaw but doesn't appear to be linked to Khozmo (although selling similar products but with a very different aesthetic).

    EDITED TO ADD - weird - just checked again and they have indeed got exactly the same business address

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