Current Lash Up:
TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.
Well actually, we are. If a passive preamp sounds 'soft', directly as a result of compromising leading-edge definition, which otherwise is present in the signal path, then factually, that represents a form of signal degradation.
Alternatively, at the very best, what's happening is that the passive preamp in question is smoothing out the sound in some other way, and in turn making it 'soft', which thus acts as a form of coloration, neither of which is desired or can fundamentally be fixed by one's choice of speakers.
In any case, so are you now accepting that said 'softness' can exist with some passives, in certain systems, compared with the very best active designs?
Marco.
Main System
Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.
Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.
Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.
CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.
Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.
Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.
Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.
Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.
Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.
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I never didn't accept that. I've also not heard every passive in existence so I cannot make a blanket statement.
I'm not convinced that the passive is 'losing' the leading edge in any case. We are using the word 'softening' as a convenient shorthand but it would be a mistake to think that is exactly what is happening. The effect is far more subtle than the use of the word 'softening' might indicate and IME it is dependant on the other components of the system also.
Secondary to that you are also assuming that the alternative is more accurate when there are no grounds for that. Most active pre-amps are far less transparent than a decent passive and are not a benchmark to judge anything by.
Current Lash Up:
TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.
Well, at the end of the day, all that matters about what is 'accurate', is what you hear that's considered as better... We've been here many times before!
However, it was you yourself who wrote earlier:
*You* chose that language, when making your statement, so I guess it's up to you how you define "sound slightly soft" and "loses a bit of the leading edge", and in comparison with what...Originally Posted by Macca
Marco.
Main System
Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.
Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.
Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.
CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.
Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.
Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.
Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.
Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.
Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.
Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!
Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!
Location: Coventry, England UK
Posts: 534
I'm Simon.
Yes to be fair, 'harsh' is probably the wrong word. 'Unattractive' is probably more like it. Or perhaps 'stark'. It's hard to get warmed up to the sound in the way a nice tube preamp does the business. I've tried lots of them too including expensive ones such as a (then) top of the line MFA TVC Mark 2, which retailed at £5k. What I did notice particularly was that this effect was less with some sources and really obvious with others so I dare say it's possible to mitigate this to some extent.
Ultimately though, my belief is that if a passive preamp was the best solution for most applications then that's what we would see almost everywhere, and a powered preamp would be an oddball choice. It stands to reason that if the cheapest option was best for most purposes then that's what would be near-universally adopted. In fact it's the other way round, and believe this is overwhelmingly for sonic reasons.
The appeal of passives seems to be 1) they are cheap ... though not always of course, or 2) people believe that 'simple' = unadulterated/pure and therefore better.
It's my view that the latter point is a fallacy based on incomplete knowledge of how electronics works and in particular what can happen to a signal routed through passive components vs one routed through an active circuit. Either can damage or otherwise have negative effects on the output of the source component vs what arrives at the output - the idea that a passive is necessarily more pure or less damaging to the signal is, frankly, wrong.
Hi Simon,
Did you read post #43 and the link contained therein?
Marco.
Main System
Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.
Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.
Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.
CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.
Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.
Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.
Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.
Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.
Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.
Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!
Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!
Whilst I agree with the thrust of your argument, Tom, I don't think that's the main reason, which is likelier that passive preamps are not normally mainstream/commercial items, and thus somewhat more niche, in the sense that they're generally only available from 'specialist' manufacturers.
Sonic considerations aside, that is most likely why 'powered preamps' are the norm
I completely agree, or basically when they're coupled to partnering equipment and/or cables that in some way inhibit their efficacy.The appeal of passives seems to be 1) they are cheap ... though not always of course, or 2) people believe that 'simple' = unadulterated/pure and therefore better.
It's my view that the latter point is a fallacy based on incomplete knowledge of how electronics works and in particular what can happen to a signal routed through passive components vs one routed through an active circuit. Either can damage or otherwise have negative effects on the output of the source component vs what arrives at the output - the idea that a passive is necessarily more pure or less damaging to the signal is, frankly, wrong.
That's the danger of assembling a system, or choosing equipment, based on specs or measurements (and thus what is perceived as being more 'accurate'), as they mostly always only tell part of the story!
Marco.
Main System
Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.
Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.
Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.
CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.
Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.
Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.
Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.
Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.
Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.
Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!
Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!
Take a look at this: https://www.audialonline.com/topics/...olume-control/
Of course it means you need a very low source impedance...
Mana Acoustics Racks / Bright Star IsoNodes Decoupling >> Allo DigiOne Player >> Pedja Rogic's Audial Model S DAC + Pioneer PL-71 turntable / Vista Audio phono-1 mk II / Denon PCL-5 headshell / Reson Reca >> LFD DLS >> LFD PA2M (SE) >> Royd RR3s.
All becoming a bit moot either way as the old 'pre+power' paradigm joins other Dodos (like disk-based media) on the scrap heap of technological history and fully integrated solutions of all kinds become the norm.
As to tubes, never been a big fan so whether passives work well or badly with them never really bothered me. Always found them a bit too syrupy sweet for my liking.
As I said earlier, I have found a simple 'pot in a box' attenuator coupled to either of my Quad power amps to work every bit as effectively as either of my Quad pres when using high output sources. Never notice any 'softening', 'harshness' or other form of distortion to speak of. Although I'm sure there are bound to be some who'll spring in to note that Quad pres are crap anyway
As always - YMMV