On the demise of the British pub

[Marco]

Well, I know plenty, in the likes of Glasgow, where what Joe's described is pretty accurate, so I doubt his recollection is faulty.

Slightly strange (and defensive) attitude you've adopted on this topic, Geoff, as if for whatever reason, you've taken Joe's remarks as some sort of personal affront...

Marco.

[Barry]

Excellent point, Jo, and too true. However, loners and such like (anyone who isn't switched on enough), shouldn't be given the job in the first place.

For me, unless you have a friendly, outgoing and gregarious personality, know how to look after yourself and aren't easily intimidated, are 100% focussed on making the pub concerned a success, and have the time, willingness to work like a dog, and business acumen necessary for that to happen, then forget all about running a pub...

Being a pub landlord simply isn't for social misfits, shy little wallflowers, or couples who are 'nappied up to the max'. It's for people who are devoted/dedicated to the cause, and willing to make it their life's main purpose, until such times as that's no longer necessary. Otherwise, forget it!

In my experience the best pubs are usually 'Free Houses' run by their owner who also lives on the premises. Next best is a tenant landlord, and the worse is a pub run by a manager appointed by the brewery who own the premises.

There are exceptions of course. One of my locals is part of the Ember Inns group, so the décor follows corporate identity, but being an old premise (part of it dates back to the 16th century, and it is said to be haunted), is still cosy and has some character. The bar staff are young and not particularly experienced, but more importantly the 'guest' draught beers on offer are all interesting, tasty and well-kept.

[Puffin]

In the 70s I was big big beer drinker and there were lots of pubs in the area doing good real ale. I was always out drinking and it seemed far better value than it does these days. It probably wasn't though. maybe I was just more sociable then and was not so worried about the style or decor of the pub. What bugs me these days is the price of all drinks in pubs or restaurants. Soft drink prices are scandalous (yea, yea I know that these places have to make a profit) but it is taking the piss. Wine...£5 - £6 for a "large" glass of wine (err not that large is it) Mrs Puffin doesn't really drink so it is not worth having a bottle, but even then the mark-up is no better. Food....such variable quality even if you go regularly, sometimes great, sometimes shit....but still the same price

Maybe it boils down to perceived value for money...or how much you want to spend, or have available to spend. My son earns megabucks and is often eating out which to him is probably like pocket money. If something is not good value for money then it is not for me now. Have some pubs been the author of their own misfortune?

[Sherwood]

Well, I know plenty, in the likes of Glasgow, where what Joe's described is pretty accurate, so I doubt his recollection is faulty.

Slightly strange (and defensive) attitude you've adopted on this topic, Geoff, as if for whatever reason, you seem to have taken Joe's remarks as some sort of personal affront...

Marco.

Coming from an Irish family might have something to do with it. I get somewhat irritated by stereotypical cliches of the Irish and Irish pubs. I am sure that there are pubs in Glasgow where casual visitors are not welcomed but he was referring to London. In London, most pubs rely on passing trade and strangers always were and remain the norm.

Geoff

[struth]

Coming from an Irish family might have something to do with it. I get somewhat irritated by stereotypical cliches of the Irish and Irish pubs. I am sure that there are pubs in Glasgow where casual visitors are not welcomed but he was referring to London. In London, most pubs rely on passing trade and strangers always were and remain the norm.

Geoff

to be sure, to be sure

[The Black Adder]

I agree, Marco.

Landlords should be passionately involved in the pub game.

Thing is, some breweries like Marston's are just pulling the wool over peoples eyes... getting people to whack a deposit down and tell them it's going to make a living. Then, after the initial 6 months of discounted beer they whack it up to full and basically leave them to it. Even if it's their first pub.

I've had many conversations with landlords who were close to collapse and in tears because what they were told was far from the truth.

True, they shouldn't have done it if they weren't cut out for it and that's a fact but the breweries don't help matters before or after the case.

It was truly awful..

[Marco]

In my experience the best pubs are usually 'Free Houses' run by their owner who also lives on the premises. Next best is a tenant landlord, and the worse is a pub run by a manager appointed by the brewery who own the premises.

Totally agree, and it's the first of the types we usually go to. However, for a pub to attract me it *must* have most, or preferably all, of the following:

1) Great selection of local ales, all well kept, same with single-malt whiskies, plus whatever other forms of alcohol are offered, served by knowledgeable and convivial hosts.
2) Great food, made using fresh locally-sourced produce, served by the same as above, also cooked by someone the same, with flare/imagination and a real passion for food.
3) Is *spotlessly clean throughout*.
4) Unfailingly customer-focussed, offering superb service, in all respects.
5) Has an attractive country location, or a town centre one, in a nice part of town.
6) The clientele have some class/manners and know how to behave, which is strictly enforced otherwise by the management.
7) Children are only allowed *if* their parents are capable of controlling/entertaining them, without that onus being put on the pub, and they are generally well-behaved.
8) Same applies (the relevant bit) to dogs.
9) Has a pleasant, well-kept beer garden, to facilitate outdoor drinking, within the grounds of the pub, during summer months.
10) Cosy, non-rowdy atmosphere with attractive and tasteful decor, which is neither old-fashioned or 'modern', in the wrong way. And not so busy that you can't find a seat!

No3 is a MUST. The last bit in bold I'll be discussing more later, which is something you touched on before.

Marco.

[Marco]

Coming from an Irish family might have something to do with it. I get somewhat irritated by stereotypical cliches of the Irish and Irish pubs. I am sure that there are pubs in Glasgow where casual visitors are not welcomed but he was referring to London. In London, most pubs rely on passing trade and strangers always were and remain the norm.

As for the first bit, fair enough (I could sense the irritation in you). In terms of the latter, I shouldn't imagine that'd be the case in the east end, in some of the 'locals' there.

Oh, and trust me, Glasgow pubs also get their fair share of strangers and passing trade - it's not some hillbilly place in the middle of nowhere!

Marco.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Have any of you actually read any company reports of the pubs your discussing? The pub industry is NOT in decline.

[Pigmy Pony]

Spot on Josie, breweries like Marston's really do take the piss...

A £500,000 turnover is entirely feasible in a busy pub, but what they're not saying is that soon the price of beers from them will be increased to the point where they'd be lucky to make more than a few pence on each pint, and they're not allowed to shop around. That paltry mark up means that they're probably making about £40,000 a year, and then they have heating and staff to pay, and I'm sure there'll be other costs too.

I could never be persuaded to take on a pub, not even if it came with a free nest of tables.

There are a couple of pubs that have started up in Chorley which I believe are called 'micro pubs', which just look like corner shops which have been converted. I don't know what the ins and outs of these are regarding licensing etc., but I'll find out and report back.