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Thread: Solid state preamp grain compared to valves

  1. #11
    Join Date: Jan 2008

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    IME, only poor SS preamps sound grainy. The good ones don't, *but*, to my ears, are a little musically bland/matter-of-fact, compared with the best valve designs.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

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  2. #12
    Bigman80 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yomanze View Post
    Some of that “grain” could be in the recording itself, where some of the more euphonic valve pres would gloss over it.

    Know what you mean about solid state grain though, it’s rare to find solid state gear without it when comparing to valves, just as it’s rare to find solid state precision and tautness with valves.
    +1

  3. #13
    Join Date: Sep 2009

    Location: west mids, UK

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    I'm Phil.

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    had lots of valve pre amps in recent years , also had quite a few ss and using a bel canto pre 3 ss pre now . i am not sure i would recognise grain and not sure what it is really . it sounds very natural and enjoyable into my class A power amp . i am extremely impressed with it in many ways . amazing vfm but you do need a separate psu to run it
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  4. #14
    Join Date: Mar 2011

    Location: Reading

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    I'm George.

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    Preamps have become the real plain Jane of the audio world.

    Many people are recommending that the variable outputs of DACs give a stunning sound, so why bother spending more than fourpence on a preamp?

    Of course, the answer is if you do not want to mess up the music then you will need a good preamp. A lot of DACs alter the volume by slicing bits off the signal. So having gone to the expense of getting a brilliant 16 bit (or 24 bit) signal you let the DAC chop off bits and reduce resolution. For me, most passives seem to give a very neutral, detailed sound but some of the drive and impact is lost, sometimes with a loss of brilliance in the high frequencies. And yes even when care is taken to get the impedances right. TVCs seem to be a better match but then there are small badly made transformers and ones where great care is taken to design and make a great transformer. MFA and Townshend seem to get it right.

    An awful lot of SS preamps have a (slightly) grainy sound, which can be made worse by intense, compressed music. There are some that do not have that edge (slight?) but they tend to be one-offs or expensive. But a lot of SS preamps sort of make up for it with a very tight and dynamic sound with great bass control.

    Getting a valve preamp to give a grainless sound is more straightforward but the less good ones do it by flattening the dynamics. However, when the better ones get it right it can be magical. The sound becomes realisitic and musicians sound like they are trying to communicate something to you not a disembodied voice that is as clear as anything but they could be singing the Reading phone book with more emotion.

    You clearly do not like the SS edge and I have to admit I do not either

  5. #15
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    I wonder how many of us would not be able to distinguish between good valve, solid state and passive pre-amps if we did not know which we were listening to?


    Could you go into a strange room with an unknown and hidden system, have a listen and then say - 'That's solid state amplification', or 'that's valve amplification?'


    Not tried that myself but I'm pretty sure it would be harder than we think it would.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  6. #16
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

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    Quote Originally Posted by George47 View Post
    Preamps have become the real plain Jane of the audio world.

    Many people are recommending that the variable outputs of DACs give a stunning sound, so why bother spending more than fourpence on a preamp?

    Of course, the answer is if you do not want to mess up the music then you will need a good preamp. A lot of DACs alter the volume by slicing bits off the signal. So having gone to the expense of getting a brilliant 16 bit (or 24 bit) signal you let the DAC chop off bits and reduce resolution. For me, most passives seem to give a very neutral, detailed sound but some of the drive and impact is lost, sometimes with a loss of brilliance in the high frequencies. And yes even when care is taken to get the impedances right. TVCs seem to be a better match but then there are small badly made transformers and ones where great care is taken to design and make a great transformer. MFA and Townshend seem to get it right.

    An awful lot of SS preamps have a (slightly) grainy sound, which can be made worse by intense, compressed music. There are some that do not have that edge (slight?) but they tend to be one-offs or expensive. But a lot of SS preamps sort of make up for it with a very tight and dynamic sound with great bass control.

    Getting a valve preamp to give a grainless sound is more straightforward but the less good ones do it by flattening the dynamics. However, when the better ones get it right it can be magical. The sound becomes realisitic and musicians sound like they are trying to communicate something to you not a disembodied voice that is as clear as anything but they could be singing the Reading phone book with more emotion.

    You clearly do not like the SS edge and I have to admit I do not either
    Pretty much my experience too, George. There's no 'perfect preamp', the same as there's no perfect anything else in hi-fi. All have their respective sonic signatures.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  7. #17
    Join Date: Apr 2008

    Location: Warrington

    Posts: 3,451
    I'm Neil.

    Default Solid state preamp grain compared to valves

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Pretty much my experience too, George. There's no 'perfect preamp', the same as there's no perfect anything else in hi-fi. All have their respective sonic signatures.

    Marco.
    Yes, I would love to have one of those ‘transparent’ components that objectivists love, because to me, they do not exist! If they did, I would absolutely own one.
    Mana Acoustics Racks / Bright Star IsoNodes Decoupling >> Allo DigiOne Player >> Pedja Rogic's Audial Model S DAC + Pioneer PL-71 turntable / Vista Audio phono-1 mk II / Denon PCL-5 headshell / Reson Reca >> LFD DLS >> LFD PA2M (SE) >> Royd RR3s.

  8. #18
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    I wonder how many of us would not be able to distinguish between good valve, solid state and passive pre-amps if we did not know which we were listening to?


    Could you go into a strange room with an unknown and hidden system, have a listen and then say - 'That's solid state amplification', or 'that's valve amplification?'


    Not tried that myself but I'm pretty sure it would be harder than we think it would.
    I don't think that would work, simply because you'd be completely unfamiliar with the sound of the amps concerned (there is no 'universal sonic signature' for SS and valve amplification), and so have no basis on which to make a judgement.

    The thing to do, would be first to familiarise yourself with the sound of the amps (and test system) in question, then attempt to blindly identify which amp was being used at any given time. That way you'd get a proper handle on the differences between both.

    In my experience, when you get to the pinnacle of what both SS and valve preamps can do, there's little to choose between the best examples of each.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  9. #19
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yomanze View Post
    Yes, I would love to have one of those ‘transparent’ components that objectivists love, because to me, they do not exist! If they did, I would absolutely own one.
    Me too, as it'd solve a lot of headaches! Plus, it would focus you more on what matters most (listening to music), not fretting over boxes

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  10. #20
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,778
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I don't think that would work, simply because you'd be completely unfamiliar with the sound of the amps concerned (there is no 'universal sonic signature' for SS and valve amplification), and so have no basis on which to make a judgement.

    The thing to do, would be first to familiarise yourself with the sound of the amps (and test system) in question, then attempt to blindly identify which amp was being used at any given time. That way you'd get a proper handle on the differences between both.

    In my experience, when you get to the pinnacle of what both SS and valve preamps can do, there's little to choose between the best examples of each.

    Marco.
    Exactly. I was responding to the various generalisations that were being made about valve and solid state.

    I suppose if you had a poor valve amp and a poor solid state amp then you could tell the difference because they would doing different things badly. But once you move into the real quality stuff, forget it. I've seem people mistake solid state amps for valve amps a few times. One of them was an EE who had designed and built many valve and solid state amplifiers.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

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