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Thread: Solid state preamp grain compared to valves

  1. #121
    Join Date: May 2009

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    I'm joe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
    I get the impression that the hot weather is affecting the debate here.
    I think discussing Brexit would be more interesting than this thread's sort of 'oh yes it is'/'oh no it isn't' exchange.

    FWIW I've tried active and passive preamps, valve and SS power amps (various combinations of the two) and I couldn't say, with any degree of certainty, which was 'better', in any sense of the word. 'Different', maybe, but not necessarily in a 'SS = more grain' way.

  2. #122
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Hi Andrew,

    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    There's nothing magic about a light dependent resistor nor anything about it that makes it superior to an ordinary metal film resistor. In fact they're inferior as resistors. Obviously, they have the useful property of being light sensitive which can be very useful in some applications.
    I'm very confident in saying that in a like-for-like comparison between a metal film resistor based attenuator and an LDR based attenuator, you wouldn't hear any superiority from the LDR. "Like-for-like" means having the resistances the same. It would be an invalid test if one had an impedance of, say, 10k and the other 2 meg.

    I don't know the details of what you're having made, but I've seen quite a few instances recently where people have referred to "passive" preamps when they have been no such thing. The Nelson Pass B1 is one example and the WAD KLP1 is another. They're simply active preamps with maximum gain of unity. Is it possible that what you're having built is an active preamp with an LDR volume control?
    Thanks for that, and noted. Chris, from LDR, is building the latest version of his Stereo Coffee unit for me, with all the recent upgrades, so I'm looking forward to comparing it with my Croft. You can read about the former here: https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/top...grade-preview/

    What I was specifically getting at though, was what makes an LDR, unlike other passives, seemingly not as fussy about which power amp it's partnered with, in terms of ensuring that the sound doesn't lack 'drive' or has the life sucked out of the music.

    LDRs don't seem to suffer from that issue, but other passives I've heard do, indlusing metal-film resistor based ones, and I'm curious as to why?

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  3. #123
    Bigman80 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Hi Andrew,



    Thanks for that, and noted. Chris, from LDR, is building the latest version of his Stereo Coffee unit for me, with all the recent upgrades, so I'm looking forward to comparing it with my Croft. You can read about the former here: https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/top...grade-preview/

    What I was specifically getting at though, was what makes an LDR, unlike other passives, seemingly not as fussy about which power amp it's partnered with, in terms of ensuring that the sound doesn't lack 'drive' or has the life sucked out of the music.

    LDRs don't seem to suffer from that issue, but other passives I've heard do, indlusing metal-film resistor based ones, and I'm curious as to why?

    Marco.
    I'll be watching this with interest, Marco. It's something which has as many detractors as it does fans.

  4. #124
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    No worries, mate. There'll be a full write-up, with pics, when it happens!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  5. #125
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: The Black Country

    Posts: 6,088
    I'm Alan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    More life? No, I wouldn't say that, probably because it's too nebulous a description for my liking. However, what I'm left with is even more nebulous: more something, but I'm not sure what.
    That of course is the problem in a nutshell, the spoken word is most inadequate at describing what we hear.
    Great that you are hearing more 'something'.

    I think it helps if you can bounce terms back and forward between a mate so you get a feel for what you are both experiencing.

  6. #126
    Join Date: Oct 2017

    Location: Ontario, Canada

    Posts: 791
    I'm Svend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    The Stereo Coffee appears to be a totally passive attenuator so I have no explanation as to why it should have "more drive" than a more conventional passive attenuator. I have made plenty of passive preamps and to be honest have never experienced the "lifeless" presentation that has been alluded to in this thread. Maybe that's because I usually partnered them with valve power amps or SS power amps with high input impedances. I also always used short (1 metre) lengths of low capacitance interconnects.
    I'm currently using an active preamp (transistor, my own design) which I think has the edge on the passives I've made. More life? No, I wouldn't say that, probably because it's too nebulous a description for my liking. However, what I'm left with is even more nebulous: more something, but I'm not sure what.
    Andrew, I believe you've touched on an important point here, namely careful matching of a passive device with a power amp that will work well with it. This matching of complementary components is, of course, something that is mentioned repeatedly on this forum with respect to all sorts of units, not just passive pre's. But back to passive pre amps, I suspect there is more to this than just the pre-/power-amp matching, but also what's happening upstream with the source components and their output, as well as downstream with the speakers and their demand, have some impact on how well a passive pre will work in a given system. Synergy, in other words.

  7. #127
    Join Date: Mar 2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. C View Post
    Martin

    All amplifiers have some distortion how low that distortion is down to the individual components, design layout construction methods used.

    Happily measure any active pre amplifier for you wish totally unbiased, a lot of the transformer type units 'ring' like a bell @ 4Khz and need a serious amount of damping inside the casework, the hand soldered point to point wiring is also left flapping in the breeze we could go into how that generates its own issues. Again implementation is the key

    The LDR versions offer a better all round preservative imho if I had to use one it would be this type of passive.

    Every-time I have place a passive pre amplifier in my own system, it takes a backwards step in transparency, natural pace (not artificial naim inspired falseness), stage depth and involvement. I have personally had many passive designs over the years including some ultra exotic Japanese uber constructed wonders which cost kidney transplant amounts, beautifully sweet, delicate, nice layering and fluidity in these area's you would struggle to get close even with valves, yet it was like watching a world class painter at work through a first floor window, not all of the perspective was apparent.

    We have a couple of customers with the MFA reference unit, it leaves me cold (that doesn't mean its an appealing unit at all for many people), it fits certain genre's of music very well and in their systems does sound good (Not wow my dangles have had an Epiphany or I would trade the wife for it type moment) This goes back to my earlier post, it is what you like not what peter the bell-end's latest bit of equipment is from hifi-dogs bollox forum

    However I have a broad spectrum of music I listen to and that type just doesn't cut the mustard with everything I listen to.

    I would agree with Marco on one point though (I know hell freezes over twice this year!), passives upto £2K are generally better than most equivalent active pre's, there are always exceptions, though it is a valid point, (like Hypex Ncore modules/Tannoys/insert any forums favorite toy of the moment I would term them cheap speed a lot of bang for buck.)

    Some interesting reading regarding passives

    With regard to measurements on the passives I found this on the highly respected Mod squad passive.

    Passive pre measurements Stereophile

    The channel separation measured on the pre amplifier I use is 0.00025%-0.0005% @ 1khz and 1v even at maximum out (40V I know no one will ever use that level!, oh maybe Marco ) is still 0.093% THD

    Before everyone jumps in with because it measure good doesn't mean it sound good totally agreed, however this one does!

    Use your ears, in your system that is the only way YOU can decide if it is right for you not Joe blogs forum buddy group.
    LDR’s can sound impressive, but they don’t measure too well and are not linear.
    “Music has always been a matter of energy to me, a question of fuel. Sentimental people call it inspiration, but what they really mean is fuel. I have always needed fuel. I am a serious consumer. On some nights I still believe that a car with the gas needle on empty can run about fifty more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio”

    Hunter S Thompson

  8. #128
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
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    Does that matter though, Ali, if they sound "impressive" (read as good)?

    Valve amps don't measure as well in some areas, as their SS counterparts, but it hasn't stopped you or I (who know what a good sound is) from using them as our preferred choice. As ever, feck measurements, and instead use yer lugs: the classic AoS mantra!



    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  9. #129
    Join Date: Apr 2008

    Location: Warrington

    Posts: 3,451
    I'm Neil.

    Default Solid state preamp grain compared to valves

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Hi Andrew,
    LDRs don't seem to suffer from that issue, but other passives I've heard do, indlusing metal-film resistor based ones, and I'm curious as to why?

    Marco.
    Switching contacts are one of the biggest compromises in audio. DIP switches too. I wonder if it has to do with increased impedance / decreased conductivity at the switch contacts, something that an active can deal with...
    Mana Acoustics Racks / Bright Star IsoNodes Decoupling >> Allo DigiOne Player >> Pedja Rogic's Audial Model S DAC + Pioneer PL-71 turntable / Vista Audio phono-1 mk II / Denon PCL-5 headshell / Reson Reca >> LFD DLS >> LFD PA2M (SE) >> Royd RR3s.

  10. #130
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    The Stereo Coffee appears to be a totally passive attenuator so I have no explanation as to why it should have "more drive" than a more conventional passive attenuator. I have made plenty of passive preamps and to be honest have never experienced the "lifeless" presentation that has been alluded to in this thread. Maybe that's because I usually partnered them with valve power amps or SS power amps with high input impedances. I also always used short (1 metre) lengths of low capacitance interconnects.
    As have I, Andrew. I can assure you that the valve power amp I use, cables and system, are 100% compatible with passive preamps, but that hasn't stopped them sounding as I've described, compared with my active valve preamp.

    I agree LDRs don't measure well, but regardless of that, they seem not to suck the life out of the music, worry about longer cable lengths, or be as amplifier-fussy, in an electrical sense, as other passives, and I'm sure that there must be a technical reason for that to back up what my ears are telling me.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


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