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Thread: Solid state preamp grain compared to valves

  1. #111
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: Seaford UK

    Posts: 1,861
    I'm Dennis.

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    From Marco;
    "Who says so? And I don't care about measurements, as they don't always tell the full story. "

    I do care about measurements, and they don't tell the full story, but they may in the future..

    To lol at a simple statement of truth which is 100% accurate seems inappropriate to me, it was not meant to be a complete treatise of all causes of poor sound quality, but just a statement of a simple isolated fact.

    To be an objectivist is surely not to assume that the stance explains everything in an all encompassing and complete way, it is more a declaration of validation of objective criteria, which necessarily are an incomplete attempt at defining performance.

    From my POV it is a dangerous path to allow oneself to be seduced by a sound on it apparent subjective enjoyability.

    This is so to me because the psychology of our existence shows that we easily tend to rely on comfort zones to avoid anxiety and cognitive dissonance, in all areas of life; it is a human trait which aids survival by allaying anxiety.

    Since my recent changes I have been very aware of how I have previously missed detail, and how now often the art is not now beguiling; the subtle improvement has radically changed the presentation and overall picture

    I get the impression that the hot weather is affecting the debate here.

  2. #112
    Join Date: Oct 2017

    Location: Ontario, Canada

    Posts: 791
    I'm Svend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawrence001 View Post
    I've tried a few SS active pres and I haven't been able to get on with them, ultimately I find the sound irritating. I've put this down to a slight silicon grain even on good ones (eg. Audio Research). I've also matched them with a few modern SS power amps that seem to smooth out the grain but they make the sound dull and lifeless. I've never had this with valve pre amps (sometimes harshness with cheaper ones or cheap valves, but never the "grain"). Nor with good passives.

    Is it in my head, are my ears/brain sensitive, or is this just the way it is?

    Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk
    Lawrence, to your original question, I don't think it's in your head at all. You clearly are sensitive to this, which is a good thing in this hobby, being able to discern subtle differences.

    I can tell you that I also experienced this with my preamps, and didn't get this sorted out until I had my main pre (Sony TA-E86B) heavily modded and recapped. The timeline went something like this: Sony was stock, driving a Belles OCM 200 power amp, Teac VRDS-10 cd player (unmodded) as main source; I didn't like the sound of the pre (harsh, grainy, lacking openness) so had it converted to be a passive device; this sounded better at the time, until I upgraded the speakers to a harder-to-drive pair and then modded the Teac (clock board, op amps, etc.); after a time I came to realize that the passive state of the preamp was holding the whole system back; just for a lark I temporarily swapped in a Sugden active pre, and Holy Smokes! the system was alive again; so I had the Sony fully hot-rodded and it now sounds sweet, fluid and grain free, with incredible delicacy and detail.

    So, to make a long story short, I believe you can get a solid state preamp, even a mid-level one, to sound fluid and sweet, but it may require some modding to eliminate some of the offending parts and replace them with higher-quality ones. I'm thinking things like capacitors, resistors, op amps, connectors. Let's face it, all components, except cost-no-object ones, are designed with compromises to fit a price point. So, assuming the basic circuit design is sound, there should be room for improvement. For this, the advice and service of a top-notch tech is invaluable. The fellow that I used, Dan Santoni, worked a miracle on my Sony -- totally transformed the sound....unrecognisable from the original, and for very reasonable money. So if you have a solid state preamp that you like the sound of, except for a bit of grain, and it seems to match well with your power amp, perhaps it might be worth a consult with a good tech to see if it can be improved.

    As for passive pre's, I would have to agree with some of the others (Marco, Shaun, etc.) that they leave a lot wanting in way of dynamics, pace, drive, fullness. What I gained in way of cleaner sound by converting my Sony to a passive, I lost more by ending up with a lifeless system. This became very apparent once I upgraded other components that really revealed the shortcomings of the pre. I suppose it's possible to have a passive pre that is able to provide the power amp with the input that it needs to really drive the speakers, presuming that the latter are an easy load, but that's not been my experience.

    BTW, that Sugden I mentioned sounded wonderful! Very full, dynamic, fluid, punchy. It lacks detail and delicacy next to the Sony, but has a fuller, warmer sound. It's a Sugden C-28 model, in case you're interested. Great preamp!

    Good luck!

    Hope this helps.

    Svend

  3. #113
    Bigman80 Guest

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    I have spent a couple of hours this evening listening for grain (or the perceived idea of grain, as is my understanding) and couldn't find it. Tried multiple poor recordings to try and throw my DCB1 pre into a whirlwind of SS edge and harshness, but no, it wouldn't have it. Tried the Monoblocks (Valve hybrid) and the Monarchy SM-70 (Class A) and neither of them delivered any grain.

    I must be looking for the wrong thing if its in cheap to mid priced SS pre's.

    What i did notice was a bit more punch and dynamics that i didn't have with the Slagle AVC, but i didn't have it when the Xiang Sheng DAC (SS) was acting as a pre either.

    Seems the DCB1 is actually very fluid and detailed. Glad i put it together!

    Could better parts make it even better? I will find out as i am going to get the "HOTROD" version of the board and stick a few "Boutique" parts in.

  4. #114
    Join Date: Jun 2015

    Location: London/Durham

    Posts: 6,869
    I'm Lawrence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Svend N View Post
    Lawrence, to your original question, I don't think it's in your head at all. You clearly are sensitive to this, which is a good thing in this hobby, being able to discern subtle differences.

    I can tell you that I also experienced this with my preamps, and didn't get this sorted out until I had my main pre (Sony TA-E86B) heavily modded and recapped. The timeline went something like this: Sony was stock, driving a Belles OCM 200 power amp, Teac VRDS-10 cd player (unmodded) as main source; I didn't like the sound of the pre (harsh, grainy, lacking openness) so had it converted to be a passive device; this sounded better at the time, until I upgraded the speakers to a harder-to-drive pair and then modded the Teac (clock board, op amps, etc.); after a time I came to realize that the passive state of the preamp was holding the whole system back; just for a lark I temporarily swapped in a Sugden active pre, and Holy Smokes! the system was alive again; so I had the Sony fully hot-rodded and it now sounds sweet, fluid and grain free, with incredible delicacy and detail.

    So, to make a long story short, I believe you can get a solid state preamp, even a mid-level one, to sound fluid and sweet, but it may require some modding to eliminate some of the offending parts and replace them with higher-quality ones. I'm thinking things like capacitors, resistors, op amps, connectors. Let's face it, all components, except cost-no-object ones, are designed with compromises to fit a price point. So, assuming the basic circuit design is sound, there should be room for improvement. For this, the advice and service of a top-notch tech is invaluable. The fellow that I used, Dan Santoni, worked a miracle on my Sony -- totally transformed the sound....unrecognisable from the original, and for very reasonable money. So if you have a solid state preamp that you like the sound of, except for a bit of grain, and it seems to match well with your power amp, perhaps it might be worth a consult with a good tech to see if it can be improved.

    As for passive pre's, I would have to agree with some of the others (Marco, Shaun, etc.) that they leave a lot wanting in way of dynamics, pace, drive, fullness. What I gained in way of cleaner sound by converting my Sony to a passive, I lost more by ending up with a lifeless system. This became very apparent once I upgraded other components that really revealed the shortcomings of the pre. I suppose it's possible to have a passive pre that is able to provide the power amp with the input that it needs to really drive the speakers, presuming that the latter are an easy load, but that's not been my experience.

    BTW, that Sugden I mentioned sounded wonderful! Very full, dynamic, fluid, punchy. It lacks detail and delicacy next to the Sony, but has a fuller, warmer sound. It's a Sugden C-28 model, in case you're interested. Great preamp!

    Good luck!

    Hope this helps.

    Svend
    Thanks for the advice Svend, I do have an active pre I like other than the SS issue, it's a Parasound P3. I'll have a think about your suggestions.

    Lawrence

  5. #115
    Join Date: Jun 2015

    Location: London/Durham

    Posts: 6,869
    I'm Lawrence.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigman80 View Post
    I have spent a couple of hours this evening listening for grain (or the perceived idea of grain, as is my understanding) and couldn't find it. Tried multiple poor recordings to try and throw my DCB1 pre into a whirlwind of SS edge and harshness, but no, it wouldn't have it. Tried the Monoblocks (Valve hybrid) and the Monarchy SM-70 (Class A) and neither of them delivered any grain.

    I must be looking for the wrong thing if its in cheap to mid priced SS pre's.

    What i did notice was a bit more punch and dynamics that i didn't have with the Slagle AVC, but i didn't have it when the Xiang Sheng DAC (SS) was acting as a pre either.

    Seems the DCB1 is actually very fluid and detailed. Glad i put it together!

    Could better parts make it even better? I will find out as i am going to get the "HOTROD" version of the board and stick a few "Boutique" parts in.
    I most notice it with the best quality recordings as there's nowhere for it to hide.

  6. #116
    Bigman80 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawrence001 View Post
    I most notice it with the best quality recordings as there's nowhere for it to hide.
    Ok, a few recordings of good quality will happen today.

    Let's see what happens.

  7. #117
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: South Wales

    Posts: 9,151
    I'm NotTakingLifeTooSeriouslyTheseDays.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. C View Post
    Ok

    How many recording studio's use a passive pre amplifier in the recording process?

    Would you class a recording studio (a quality one shall we say!) as trying to be as faithful as possible to the original sound that the artist, composer or instrumentalist is producing inside that recording environment? Providing the record company isn't compressing the the life out of it (oh wait; maybe the compression filter we use is not a plug but a passive pre in the way? )

    Accuracy is being able to recreate what is actually being played with almost zero interference, well not really????

    If we used zero compression (assuming the equipment in the mixing booth could cope) right across the board, possible 50 people in the world *may* have the audio reproductive equipment to genuinely play it back as close as humanly possible. Then you would need a very large room to help with this task. Plus significant equipment with large drivers and stunning resolving power.

    That said could you cope with or would you wish for true realism? I would suggest not even Marco and the Wrexham wall of sound (now much polished ) would get out of the kitchen so to speak on this matter.

    This is why every single recording that has been produced in the last 35+ years or so does have some form of compression contained with in it, the very best recordings still have around 1.5-2dB worth of compression crap like Coldplay X & Y has around 7-9dB of squashing on it also Oasis whats the story morning glory is had the living urine pressed out of it.

    This is why a great many classical recordings you need to wind the wick up to truly appreciate the dynamic contrasts they contain, they are recorded at lower volumes to enable you to sample their glory.

    At the recent NWAS, I was chatting to a couple of local chaps who were enjoying the show and ask why certain recordings sounded like listening to naim,............ er sorry a car audio system!

    We made a demo disc a few years ago for a well know audio company, it demonstrates the same track compressed and again with minimal compression around 2dB on a drum track.

    The chaps thought the compressed version was pretty good until I played the same track (level matched) and they were taken aback, all though it trip out the overload protection on the amp

    Passive pre amps, if you have the resolution in your system they rapidly become the weak link imho
    "Today scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"
    Nikola Tesla



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  8. #118
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Gerrards Cross

    Posts: 2,991
    I'm Tony.

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    Morning Alan

    Just one question those trousers that you wore at NWAS were they filled with vampire poo as well????

    Your point about the plinths I have no doubt it has made a difference, though one area you could measure is vibration control, a simple seismometer can easily show any difference between vibration, as to whether this is the absolute cause of your improvement one could not say.
    Coherent Systems
    Real high end sound with musicality not hifi

  9. #119
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Norwich

    Posts: 2,814
    I'm Hugo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. C View Post
    Morning Alan

    Just one question those trousers that you wore at NWAS were they filled with vampire poo as well????

    Your point about the plinths I have no doubt it has made a difference, though one area you could measure is vibration control, a simple seismometer can easily show any difference between vibration, as to whether this is the absolute cause of your improvement one could not say.
    Sorry Tony - I can't resist putting on my professional acoustician's 'pedant' hat here. I'm assuming that you mean an accelerometer, rather than seismometer? I doubt that it would be physically possible to attach a seismometer to a turntable, and even then it would not measure much above a couple of Hz!

    But, that aside, you're correct here - this is one example where it is possible to measure what actually matters, with the right transducer and measurement system.

  10. #120
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Hi Dennis,

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
    From Marco;
    "Who says so? And I don't care about measurements, as they don't always tell the full story. "

    I do care about measurements, and they don't tell the full story, but they may in the future..

    To lol at a simple statement of truth which is 100% accurate seems inappropriate to me, it was not meant to be a complete treatise of all causes of poor sound quality, but just a statement of a simple isolated fact.

    To be an objectivist is surely not to assume that the stance explains everything in an all encompassing and complete way, it is more a declaration of validation of objective criteria, which necessarily are an incomplete attempt at defining performance.

    From my POV it is a dangerous path to allow oneself to be seduced by a sound on it apparent subjective enjoyability.

    This is so to me because the psychology of our existence shows that we easily tend to rely on comfort zones to avoid anxiety and cognitive dissonance, in all areas of life; it is a human trait which aids survival by allaying anxiety.

    Since my recent changes I have been very aware of how I have previously missed detail, and how now often the art is not now beguiling; the subtle improvement has radically changed the presentation and overall picture

    I get the impression that the hot weather is affecting the debate here.
    All fair points. However, I was simply commenting on your earlier statement of:

    "The measured distortion figures on SS compared with valve would tend against valves being better."

    You've agreed that measurements (currently) don't always tell the full story, so therefore that premise applies to the measured distortion figures you're referring to above, in terms of supposedly 'proving' that SS is 'better'.

    'Better', perhaps, if you think that's all that decides how good an amplifier sounds, but when you understand that there's a lot more than that to creating a good amplifier (pre or power), you accept that distortion figures are just another fairly meaningless spec, which in reality tells you very little about how that amplifier reproduces music.

    Marco.
    Main System

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    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

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    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


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