New Footie season - 2018/2019

[Marco]

Ok. Ajax are a club that operates on a 5 year cycle it seems. Build a team from youth, do well, team gets broken up and the cycle starts again. Their net spend is very low for this reason - get them in on the cheap (or from apprentices), sell them for a lot more.
Man City are a club where money is no object. The end. This is why their net spend is so high.


So, if Ajax adopt the City approach they have to focus much more on investment from outside the classic Ajax net, and keep players to build a squad of two world class players for each position. This still doesn't guarantee success; look at Barca, Real Madrid, Juve.

If Man City adopt the Ajax approach then they do away with big investment, re-align their wage structure and focus on their youth and scouting. This doesn't guarantee success either, and would take 10-15 years to completely change their strategy.

Ajax have their way, and accept the cycle of success at home followed by possible success in Europe (Europa + 1 season in the last 4 in the CL and doing rather well). City have their way, the way the top teams are doing it with varying levels of success. They will win the CL, and soon.

On that we largely agree.

Ajax, much like Celtic [indeed the two teams are comparable in many ways, especially in terms of infrastructure, history/fan base worldwide and playing style] are ultimately a selling club, and I reckon that if Celtic played in the top Dutch league, which I'd contend is a better standard than the SPL, and the players had been coached/managed better in a tactical sense, for a longer period of time, then they may have achieved similar European success. That would also apply to Rangers.

However, my point is that the approach Ajax have adopted, given the respective budgets of both they and Man City, has been more fruitful overall in a European sense, although no way could either club realistically change and adopt the approach of the other. I do agree that City will win the CL soon, and indeed hope so, as I support all British clubs in Europe, as long as it's not at the expense of Liverpool or Man Utd.

I also have a soft spot for Wolves, especially under their current manager, and the style of football he has them playing. On their day, they're capable of beating anyone, but woefully inconsistent!

Btw, are you a Man City fan, and if not, which team do you support?

Marco.

[Cyrus]

My woes lie in another league with Plymouth Argyle.

[struth]

I think this is an outstanding crop of players Ajax have at moment but the best of them will leave this year and they will be back to sniffing around the group stages again.
Man city with their buying power, along with several other sides across Europe will always be in with a chance of winning it. City may manage their"Holy Grail" or they may not. Money gets you in the zone but it by itself doesn't win the big European baby

[Marco]

What's thorny about it?
The season is long and hard.
We've had our share of player injuries. It was worse this season following on from the World Cup, and we had more players at the World Cup than any other team.
By final whistle of the FA Cup final we'll have played 50 domestic games.
Add on the 10 CL games, and that's a hell of a lot of fixtures.

We've played 58 out of 60 fixtures!
Fatigue sets in, and ultimately it's determination and sheer bloody mindedness that gets you over the line.
It was disappointing to have lost out to Spuds, especially considering that it was in the space of 11 days, and we beat them 2 out of 3 games. Somewhere in those 11 days we played Palace too.

We now have recovery time before the final game of the season (and I use the word final because that's what it will be), and we have recovery time before returning to Wembley for the FA Cup Final.

Liverpool were in and out of both the League Cup and FA Cup 1st game.
Time to lick wounds and recover.

Thorny from the point of view that it's a subject you sometimes seem reluctant to discuss

You make some valid points, in terms of the amount of games played, recovery time, etc. However, in that respect have you got any idea how many games Celtic have played, not only this season, but for the last three, being involved to the death in ALL domestic competitions, including having to play 3 and 4 CL qualifiers, some before the season proper has kicked off? We also had a few key players on World Cup duty, although of course not as many as you.

Yes I know most of our games haven't been as demanding, although achieving such consistent success, even in Scotland, is harder than a lot of people think, but the point is, given the amount of money City have spent, they should have a strong enough squad to cope with both injuries and the amount of games that they have to play, so whilst I accept your point as being relevant, I don't consider it as a valid excuse for their relative poor success in Europe, not only under Pep, but those before him.

For me, the issue is more deep-rooted than that, and I'll touch upon it shortly

Marco.

[struth]

Tradition has a lot to do with it for me... its a hard thing to grasp is tradition; its an aura great Euro Clubs have most of the time. City have one of the best sides around, and one, if not the, best manager.. plenty money and a great stadia; lots of fans etc... and although they have won a euro trophy, they have yet to achieve the aura, mentality and tradition of a top Euro winning side.
It could easily happen tho, especially when or if they win the biggy once, as it could snowball...

[Marco]

I think this is an outstanding crop of players Ajax have at moment but the best of them will leave this year and they will be back to sniffing around the group stages again.
Man city with their buying power, along with several other sides across Europe will always be in with a chance of winning it. City may manage their"Holy Grail" or they may not. Money gets you in the zone but it by itself doesn't win the big European baby

Yes, agreed, undoubtedly, but the point is, it's a 'recipe' that works, unlike that, European-wise, of our two teams, or indeed Man City.

As to my view of the fundamental problem City have, in terms of winning the CL, their huge wealth aside, consider how big a club Man City *really* are in the eyes of most people, compared with other British clubs such as Liverpool, Man Utd, Arsenal - or even Celtic or Rangers - who for me all have more history of success, both domestically and in Europe, than Man City, plus a bigger worldwide fanbase (certainly before Mansour injected his billions, and City gained a considerable band of 'glory hunters', to bolster the undoubtedly loyal group of supporters, who've followed them through thick and thin, over many years), and therefore crucially, for me, those clubs have more 'emotional pull', in terms of people either wanting to support or play for them...

In that respect, and for me this is part of the problem, I wonder how many players in recent years have joined Man City, as diehard Man City fans, perhaps since boyhood, in the way of players who've come to Liverpool or Man Utd (or even Celtic or Rangers), or have signed for City simply for the money? I'd argue that those types of players will never give as much for their clubs, as those who have their club's colours running though their veins...

For me therefore, that lack of 'emotional pull' and the HEART/DESIRE (as you touched upon was evident in the Liverpool players during their amazing comeback and defeat of Barca) for players to pull on a Man City jersey, because of the club's historical lack of European success, is not the same, compared with players pulling on a Liverpool or Man Utd shirt, and why Man City have struggled to win, or even reach the semi-finals of the CL - and until that issue is successfully addressed, may continue to do so.

Essentially, I don't believe that enough of the players, currently playing for Man City, have the HEART or DETERMINATION to develop the type of mentality necessary, to consistently win the big prizes - and for the master at that, one need only look to Alex Ferguson and what he achieved with Man Utd.

Therefore, for me, money and status aside, until Man City are considered by the world's best footballers as being a truly huge club, and as 'sexy' to play for as the other two English teams mentioned, with all their historical success, not to mention that of the likes of a Real Madrid, they will struggle to win European football's top prize.

Can you see where I'm coming from?

Marco.

[Marco]

Tradition has a lot to do with it for me... its a hard thing to grasp is tradition; its an aura great Euro Clubs have most of the time. City have one of the best sides around, and one, if not the, best manager.. plenty money and a great stadia; lots of fans etc... and although they have won a euro trophy, they have yet to achieve the aura, mentality and tradition of a top Euro winning side.

Lol - that's *exactly it* (aura), and is basically what I've just said!

And that, including how 'sexy' the jersey is to play for/how much it *really* means to players, has a massive influence on how successful a team will be over a period of time. In that sense, City lack the "aura" of a Real Madrid, Juventus, Liverpool, Man Utd (or even Celtic or Rangers), and for good reason, may always will.

Marco.

[Cyrus]

You can't build 'aura' or tradition over 5-10 years. It comes over decades and comes from nostalgia so I'll probably be dead before City are talked about in the same vein as Real Madrid etc. You lot will definitely be dead!

[Marco]

You can't build 'aura' or tradition over 5-10 years. It comes over decades and comes from nostalgia...

Exactly, but as you know, City have been around for much longer than 5-10 years.

We're not talking about a new football club here, but rather one that although wealthy beyond the dreams of most other clubs in Europe, are victims of their relative lack of success before the big money arrived, and so until that changes, won't have the same 'pull' or European status, as the teams that have been surrounded by said "aura" for years, due to the tradition and nostalgia you mention - and I'm not sure, from City's point of view, that simply chucking money at it is the answer.

Here's the thing... Take wages out of the equation, and if every big team in Europe paid the same money, and offered the same overall earning and football development potential for players, which teams do you think most would want to play for, and how high up do you think Man City would feature on that list?

Marco.

[rmcin626]

If a club has some decent money, as Ajax have they can then follow a blueprint of bringing players in through their youth system supported by some very clever buys around the £20 million mark. City on the other hand have mainly tried to buy success through lots of money at a series of big name managers and players.
I hope the Dutch teams become successful again, success to me is always finishing in the top 2 of your league and reaching the knockout stages of Europe.
Unless you have a big squad it’s hard to have success in a league and the Europa League.