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Thread: Early Philips and Marantz CDPs

  1. #51
    Join Date: Jun 2015

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    I'm Lawrence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    I had the CD104 and the model after that but can't remember model number. Also had some of the early Marantz and they were not much better.
    What was the rest of the system at the time?

    Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

  2. #52
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George47 View Post
    My views on early CD and CD players is based on listening experience, listening and like a few other rushing into buying CD players. The early players had crude filters and some were 14 bit because they were rushed out. Philips did all they could to get 16 bit players as soon as they could.

    My observations on sound are based on a whole range of systems including a Krell 600 monoblock wtih Wilson speakers. The speakers were closers to 4 ohms than 8 ohms so the amps could generate 1000 watts per channel so there were was no shortage of power or level. And I do listen er...loud as my neighbours can testify even though we live in a detached house.

    The delta sigma based players have a dynamically flat sound but that is not true of all of them. The sound of 16 bit R2R based CD players sounds more dynamic but maybe a little cruder. But music has to be about dynamics and I will put up with a slight divergence from a perfectly flat frequency response to get more lifelike dynamics.

    I agree on the differences between LPs and CDs and both to me now sound good, different but good. We can now have a good choice between the sound and the 'experience' of both formats. But a similar sound between the very early (14 bit?) CD players, the multi-bit 16 bit and delta sigma players.....no.
    The 14 bit players were not rushed out. On the contrary the standard was going to be 14 bit and Sony decided to change it at a late stage to 16 bit. 14 bits gives more than adequate dynamic range for all but a few recordings, it isn't an arbiter of sound quality.

    Altering the frequency response from flat won't change the dynamic range. If you are talking about 'perceived dynamics' that's different, a perception could be a result of many things.

    I'm not saying that players sound the same, I have around 15 of them and they all have a different take on the music. I don't think it is possible to ascertain which aspects of the players make them sound like they do. Just because some reviewer has an opinion on that doesn't make it so. Two players could use the same chip set and sound quite different since many aspects of the design affect the presentation and the quality of the sound.


    One thing I have noted (in my set up) is that regardless of the cost of the player or the quality of the engineering none of them sound aggressive, harsh or fatiguing. The budget efforts have a flatter soundstage, maybe sound a little cruder, but they don't sound unpleasant.
    Martin



    Current Lash Up:

    Technics SLP1200 CD Player * NVA P90SA passive pre / Krell KSA50S Power amp * JM Lab Electra 926 loudspeakers *


    'This is the sort of music I'd be listening to if I was going shopping for a training bra.'

  3. #53
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

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    I'm James.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawrence001 View Post
    What was the rest of the system at the time?

    Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk
    Quad 405 then Quad 606 with a passive preamp and Spendor speakers. All chosen to tame the sound of broken glass.

  4. #54
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Friday night I was having a bit of a session using my Technics SLP 1200 player which is one of these for those who are not familiar:



    Made in 1989, so not sure if we can count it as an 'early' player but it is pretty early in the overall scheme of things.


    Was listening to ZZ Top - 'Eliminator' for no other reason than that was what I fancied listening to. I was thinking about this thread so I was wondering if perhaps I took a step back and tried to hear the badness that some are suggesting is inherent to 'early digital'. I couldn't, in fact I ended up thinking that it would probably be difficult for the sound to get any better, a change of speakers aside of course. But I did hear some things in the mix that I have never heard before, and did not hear the last time I played this album which was only about a week previously.


    Why did I hear these 'details' this time> Was it because I had upgraded the system in some way? Nope, not changed a thing since the last time I had played the same album about a week ago. But because I was listening differently, trying to identify flaws, trying to hear the harshness or whatever, I noticed details I had not previously.


    Now if I had tweaked some aspect of the system, was using a different player for example, I might well conclude that it was better than the previous one as I could now hear these subtle details.


    All down to state of mind - human psychology.


    One thing I have noted over the years is that my room is very well damped. Quite a lot of soft furnishings, thick floor to ceiling curtains, carpets with rugs on top, quite a bit of clutter, whereas I notice these days the trend is to have a minimalist room, hardwood floor with maybe one thin rug, blinds not curtains, maybe one leather chair or one 2 seater couch and absolutely no clutter of any kind.


    We'd be fools not to take into consideration the environment the sound is bouncing around in. Could it be that this is the source, or at least a contributor to the different results we seem to be getting?
    Martin



    Current Lash Up:

    Technics SLP1200 CD Player * NVA P90SA passive pre / Krell KSA50S Power amp * JM Lab Electra 926 loudspeakers *


    'This is the sort of music I'd be listening to if I was going shopping for a training bra.'

  5. #55
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: Milton Keynes

    Posts: 1,532
    I'm Andrew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Friday night I was having a bit of a session using my Technics SLP 1200 player which is one of these for those who are not familiar:



    Made in 1989, so not sure if we can count it as an 'early' player but it is pretty early in the overall scheme of things.


    Was listening to ZZ Top - 'Eliminator' for no other reason than that was what I fancied listening to. I was thinking about this thread so I was wondering if perhaps I took a step back and tried to hear the badness that some are suggesting is inherent to 'early digital'. I couldn't, in fact I ended up thinking that it would probably be difficult for the sound to get any better, a change of speakers aside of course. But I did hear some things in the mix that I have never heard before, and did not hear the last time I played this album which was only about a week previously.


    Why did I hear these 'details' this time> Was it because I had upgraded the system in some way? Nope, not changed a thing since the last time I had played the same album about a week ago. But because I was listening differently, trying to identify flaws, trying to hear the harshness or whatever, I noticed details I had not previously.


    Now if I had tweaked some aspect of the system, was using a different player for example, I might well conclude that it was better than the previous one as I could now hear these subtle details.


    All down to state of mind - human psychology.


    One thing I have noted over the years is that my room is very well damped. Quite a lot of soft furnishings, thick floor to ceiling curtains, carpets with rugs on top, quite a bit of clutter, whereas I notice these days the trend is to have a minimalist room, hardwood floor with maybe one thin rug, blinds not curtains, maybe one leather chair or one 2 seater couch and absolutely no clutter of any kind.


    We'd be fools not to take into consideration the environment the sound is bouncing around in. Could it be that this is the source, or at least a contributor to the different results we seem to be getting?
    Thatís a cool bit of kit


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  6. #56
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyrlb View Post
    That’s a cool bit of kit

    If you are into vintage cd players it is the one to go for. It's the third one I've owned and if it ever dies and can't be fixed I'll be getting another one
    Martin



    Current Lash Up:

    Technics SLP1200 CD Player * NVA P90SA passive pre / Krell KSA50S Power amp * JM Lab Electra 926 loudspeakers *


    'This is the sort of music I'd be listening to if I was going shopping for a training bra.'

  7. #57
    Join Date: Jun 2015

    Location: London/Durham

    Posts: 1,911
    I'm Lawrence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    If you are into vintage cd players it is the one to go for. It's the third one I've owned and if it ever dies and can't be fixed I'll be getting another one
    Ah I was going to ask you if there was a potential swap/px on the table!

    Stayed up late last night glued to the chair listening to the Philips. It doesn't embarrass itself next to pretty costly gear (olive 04hd plus JS audio modded Tri Vista dac). It's also in great nick considering it's age, a couple of little hiccups at first but I found marks on the discs so it doesn't like that. Fine once cleaned off. Might also be due to long years of lack of use. Didn't like a CDR, but then it wasn't designed to play them. With the use of good cables it definitely is a step up from the 104 I sold a few years ago and missed. Output stage (or voltage rectification) gets the heatsink on the back nice and warm I'm sure it's bigger than the one on the 104.

    Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

  8. #58
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    CDR is out and sometimes so are discs that are longer than the red book standard. Where they've jammed 2 albums onto one disc. The price of vintage cdp ownership
    Martin



    Current Lash Up:

    Technics SLP1200 CD Player * NVA P90SA passive pre / Krell KSA50S Power amp * JM Lab Electra 926 loudspeakers *


    'This is the sort of music I'd be listening to if I was going shopping for a training bra.'

  9. #59
    Join Date: Jun 2015

    Location: London/Durham

    Posts: 1,911
    I'm Lawrence.

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    Haven't tried long discs on this one yet, in the past I've had players that either reject them, or get to 72+ minutes and you lose track selection and time display.

    Had a good 2 hour session last night. Need to listen more this week before I make any bold claims which could lead to ridicule.

    Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

  10. #60
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawrence001 View Post

    Need to listen more this week before I make any bold claims which could lead to ridicule.


    I agree man. A good few sessions with all sorts of music and quality of production is the way to do it. Simple and busy mixes too. If it can get through all that without disgracing itself then it's a good un.


    Not saying first impressions are not important, if something falls at the first hurdle then that's it for me. I do tend to get beguiled by superficial loveliness though. Not sure if your Marantz has that 'golden glow' to the sound that some have including the 67SE I have here? At first it's pleasing, then you realise it's there on everything you play. I mean who wants to listen to a 'pleasing' Black Sabbath? No-one, that's who.
    Martin



    Current Lash Up:

    Technics SLP1200 CD Player * NVA P90SA passive pre / Krell KSA50S Power amp * JM Lab Electra 926 loudspeakers *


    'This is the sort of music I'd be listening to if I was going shopping for a training bra.'

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