Whats The Best Sounding Tonearm Vintage/Recent Regardless of Price?

[flapland]

Currently enjoying the Mayware in my present set up Ant, with Lenco 75/ decca line contact cartridge. Soon as the needle drops the clarity of sound amazes me straightaway, just a rightness to it somehow.
There was one guy on here a few years ago who claimed that in 35 years of listening to decca cartridges he liked the mayware with it best of all.

Never heard a Decca or Mayware so would be good to listen if you up for it. Decca is one of those itches which I suspect will need to be scratched.

[walpurgis]

Never heard a Decca

Once heard, never forgotten! Nothing else is quite the same. Not to everybody's taste, but I like them.

Oh. And they are not as arm fussy as some make out. I even tried a Decca London Blue in a PL-12D with an ADC magnesium headshell and it worked surprisingly well.

[Marco]

Totally with you on this Marco, I have had a magnesium SME IV as well as a number of SS arms (including SME 3009, Ortofon AS212, Townshend Excalibur, AO PU7 and PU12), the best of them being the Ortofon 309i, FR64S, and my current Ikeda IT-407 and IT345CR1 - and all the SS arms had more life than the SME IV or V ... I can see where the SMEs might come into their own, where there was something lively about the deck perhaps .. but with a neutral deck like an SP10 or TD124 the SS arms have a strong advantage in my view.

I think, Tom, if like you and I, you've had a lot of experience of owning and/or hearing many different types of arms and cartridges, on different turntables, in a familiar context, including, in that respect, those from SME, then you eventually get a good handle on what they're doing, sonically and musically. Therefore, I feel it's no accident that our respective experiences in that area are pretty much identical

Like I said before, and which you've also just touched upon, synergy also comes into play, and in that respect there's definitely a symbiotic relationship between the likes of an SME V and Michell Gyrodec or Orbe, where it's all about the successful SUM of the parts, rather than necessarily the efficacy of any one single component. Therefore, ultimately achieving that type of synergy with any make of T/T, arm and/or cartridge, is the key to musical nirvana.

However, that of course doesn't negate our (justified) opinions of SME's magnesium-based tonearms, when used in other contexts, in comparison with the best examples of SS arms, particularly where the sonic signature we've both identified in the SME V, or IV (a lack of 'life'), becomes immediately apparent.

BTW I sold Barry my Ortofon RMG 309 as well as (very recently) an Ikeda 9C III to use on it .. suspect that's a combination made in heaven. Waiting to hear impressions ...

So am I... If he uses that combo on his TD-124, I think it'll blow him away... So Bazza, get yer arse in gear, and get it all set up and assessed, pronto (with pics)!

Marco.

[tapid]

Never heard a Decca or Mayware so would be good to listen if you up for it. Decca is one of those itches which I suspect will need to be scratched.

Will pm you tomorrow Paul, thanks.

[Barry]

A bit of confusion here: The Mk.I SME Series 3000 arms used a stainless steel arm tube. The Mk.II versions used an aluminium arm tube. The -R (revised) versions of the 3000 series arms returned to the use of stainless steel for the arm tube, as do the newer M series arms.

As I said, I have an SME 3012 Mk.II arm (with aluminium arm tube) and an M12-R (using a stainless steel arm tube); however because the vertical motion knife-edge bearings of the 3012 have been replaced with radial ball races in the M12-R, it is not a straightforward matter to ascribe sonic changes to the arm tube alone. Yes, IMO, the M12-R is the better of the two, but that could well be down to the improved bearings.

The internal damping properties of stainless steel, aluminium and magnesium are different. Stainless steel is stiffer and more 'springy' - I would expect it to have a sharper, brighter and more 'lively' sound.

Probably a matter of taste, but I think the deck and arm should be essentially neutral, leaving 'character' to the cartridge. "Tonearms" went out with the acoustic gramophone!

[Barry]

... If he uses that combo on his TD-124, I think it'll blow him away... So Bazza, get yer arse in gear, and get it all set up and assessed, pronto (with pics)!

Marco.

I have three TD124/IIs, so what I'll try to do is to set up an SME M12-R on one and the Ortofon 309i on a second; swapping the Ikeda cartridge between the two.

Be patient.

[Marco]

Hi Barry,

A bit of confusion here: The Mk.I SME Series 3000 arms used a stainless steel arm tube. The Mk.II versions used an aluminium arm tube. The -R (revised) versions of the 3000 series arms returned to the use of stainless steel for the arm tube, as do the newer M series arms.

Yup, thanks for the clarification My essential point though, remains, in that, in my experience, well-engineered stainless steel arms, whether from SME, Fidelity Research, Ikeda or Ortofon, sound better than SME's Magnesium-based arms, such as the Series V, which is touted as being among the best you can buy. Well, not for me it isn't...

As I said, I have an SME 3012 Mk.II arm (with aluminium arm tube) and an M12-R (using a stainless steel arm tube); however because the vertical motion knife-edge bearings of the 3012 have been replaced with radial ball races in the M12-R, it is not a straightforward matter to ascribe sonic changes to the arm tube alone. Yes, IMO, the M12-R is the better of the two, but that could well be down to the improved bearings.

The comparison it would be interesting for you to make is replacing the likes of your 3012, with a 312S. I *guarantee* that it would not be an overall sonic upgrade (for reasons outlined)!

The internal damping properties of stainless steel, aluminium and magnesium are different. Stainless steel is stiffer and more 'springy' - I would expect it to have a sharper, brighter and more 'lively' sound.

Precisely, and it does. However, not in an 'in yer face' kind of way; just simply imbuing music with the requisite amount of 'life', in order to make it sound dynamic and real. Not robbed of said 'life', which to my ears results in the use of tonearms with magnesium arm-tubes, due to over-dampening the sound, and subsequently not allowing music to 'breathe'.

And none of the renowned SS arms, mentioned above, including your M12-R, sound bright in an undesirable way, which is testament to the efficacy of stainless steel as an arm-tube material.

Probably a matter of taste, but I think the deck and arm should be essentially neutral, leaving 'character' to the cartridge. "Tonearms" went out with the acoustic gramophone!

Yes, I largely agree. However, the point is I don't consider the likes of an SME V as 'neutral' - far from it, as I can distinctly hear its 'character' (as described)!

Marco.

[Marco]

I have three TD124/IIs, so what I'll try to do is to set up an SME M12-R on one and the Ortofon 309i on a second; swapping the Ikeda cartridge between the two.

Be patient.

No problem. I look forward to your findings

Marco.

[Vrajbasi]

I have owned many sme arms since 1975 and still own a few the M12R in my opinion is the un sung hero of the range a superb sounding tonearm in my humble opinion better sounding than any of my 3012 and 3012r tonearms obviously cartridge depending etc, as regards to the newer arms I recently got hold a special build all silver arm which my dealer commisioned some time back, he had a few 312 arms made in 2015 with a newer aluminium arm tube and higher speced bearings all in silver with ikeda wire to my ears was so much more natural and fleshed out than any of the Magnesium arms the Magnesium has its virtus but the aluminium arm is far far far more musical and overall less academic sounding. I own a V-12 and a 312s as part of my twelve inch collection and a older 312 but this newer aluminium tonearm is far nicer sounding. That said I use a Kondo badged V-12 day to day. I have actually heard a Aluminium series V at my dealers place it was a prototype and it does sound spectacularly good. I have also heard a 3012 r with V-12 speced bearings sounds very nice too. I am also convinced no two sme tonearms sound identical after all whoever is building them is only human.

[martinjohn308]

I’ve owned many tone arms over the last 50 years and i’ve Had the Naim Aro for the last 12 years. Does everything I want it to do.

Regards,

Martin