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Thread: Do mains cables make a difference??

  1. #111
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,737
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    That's fair enough. At which point though, do you simply trust your ears and believe what you heard was true, lest you go through life in a permanent state of doubt, shunning the existence of everything that can't be 'proven', and as a result learning nothing new?

    All that does is stifle progress.

    Marco.
    On the contrary I'd say that jumping to the wrong conclusions about cause and effect is the worst possible thing for progress. If you don't know how it works then you can't improve on it, except by chance.

    There's plenty of times that a difference is pretty obvious and there's no question that the sound has changed. Then there's those occasions where we think we hear a subtle change. It's only in those latter situations that we have to question what we think we hear. Especially if there is no credible reason for there being any change.

    We have to acknowledge that we can be fooled by our senses because it is a fact that we can be.

    To me that is the practical and realistic approach. Imagination Land is not a good place to be putting a hi-fi system together or doing anything else, for that matter.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  2. #112
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonuffin View Post
    I like disagreements and contra opinions because they can be very fertile thinking grounds provided they are discussed rationally with an end purpose...
    Me too, and in that respect I'm enjoying your contributions so far

    There is no argument from me that the average domestic situation can contain all sorts of undesirable 'radiations' like wi-fi, mobile phone signals, cordless phones and mains borne crap from central heatng and washing machines, etc., but the average wi-fi system operates at milliwatt levels, so too does cordless phones and my thinking says they would have to be many hundreds of times stronger to actually energise a mains cable with 240 volts AC already residing there.
    Your thinking in that instance may be right, but that doesn't necessarily mean that mains leads aren't acting in some other way as a conduit for interference, which is ultimately detrimental to the sound of your hi-fi system, or that introducing effective shielding doesn't help address it.

    All I know is that since I've taken steps to tackle forms of airborne and electrically induced/mains-borne noise, via judicious cable selection, both power and signal orientated, and optimised my mains set-up accordingly, my system has never sounded better.

    For me, it's also no coincidence that those who've done the same, and paid proper attention to the 'infrastructure' of their system, generally always have the best sounding systems.

    At the end of the day, experience tells me that the devil is always in the details!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  3. #113
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    On the contrary I'd say that jumping to the wrong conclusions about cause and effect is the worst possible thing for progress.
    But that's not what I'm saying... And I'm not "jumping to the wrong conclusions" either.

    I've reached the conclusions I have after 20 years of experimenting with mains and signal cables, the results of which have satisfied my judgement criteria. They may not be right, but they satisfy me, and so that being the case, I'm happy to believe they're true.

    For me, that's a practical and realistic approach...

    Therefore, I'm asking at what point, after being confident that you know how something works (as far as possible), and having researched the 'facts', do you simply trust your ears, even if what you're hearing appears to contradict it?

    Essentially it comes down to this:

    At what point could "imagination land" become reality if, despite seemingly being disproved by currently accepted wisdom, what you're hearing was true?

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  4. #114
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Moreover, extrapolating things further, can you also see how if what you're hearing *was* true, then blindly believing the contrary, simply because currently accepted wisdom dictates so, could actually stifle progress...?

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  5. #115
    Join Date: Apr 2018

    Location: South East Cornwall

    Posts: 322
    I'm Dominic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    But that's not what I'm saying... And I'm not "jumping to the wrong conclusions" either. I've reached the conclusions I have after 20 years of experimenting with mains and signal cables, the results of which have satisfied my judgement criteria. They may not be right, but they satisfy me, and so that being the case, I'm happy to believe they're true.

    For me, that's a practical and realistic approach...

    Marco.
    I was going to ask how you arrived at the conclusion that your mains leads were doing their bit to keep the interference gremlins out of your system. 20 years of experiment and observation obviously works well for you and being right or wrong gives me no cause to challenge what you have said or your actions in arriving at that. My experience differs from that I will admit, but I must respect your opinion accordingly, as we might both be right without realising it.
    CD player = Marantz CD6006
    DAC/pre = Rotel RC 1572
    Power amp = ADA PF201
    Speaks = Quadral Chromium Style 6

  6. #116
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 6,767
    I'm James.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigman80 View Post
    Lol, I've ventured far enough into this rabbit hole. £60 for a mains cable is about as far as I'm willing to go so I'm going to trust your findings implicitly
    But if you get chance sometime just try a 4mm sq section cable vs a 2.5mm sq on your preamp and listen to the difference. The 4mm killed mine!

  7. #117
    Bigman80 Guest

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    Will do Jim.

  8. #118
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonuffin View Post
    I was going to ask how you arrived at the conclusion that your mains leads were doing their bit to keep the interference gremlins out of your system. 20 years of experiment and observation obviously works well for you and being right or wrong gives me no cause to challenge what you have said or your actions in arriving at that. My experience differs from that I will admit, but I must respect your opinion accordingly, as we might both be right without realising it.
    Absolutely, Dominic. And I respect your contrary experience.

    For me, however, there's a danger of allowing your natural senses and thought processes to become bogged down/governed by 'what is deemed as correct', based on currently accepted wisdom. It stifles free thought, which I'm vehemently against.

    Maybe 9 times out of 10 currently accepted wisdom is right, but what about the other time when it might not be, or in fact isn't - or are we saying that we unquestionably know all there is to know about cables, and how they influence the behaviour of audio equipment: everything that needs proving has already been proven - and so there is nothing new to learn?

    For me, that's far from the case and constitutes as lazy thinking, liable to stifle progress, just as much as blindly believing in any kind of 'foo', invented by and claimed as true, by cable manufacturers.

    There has to be a point in the final analysis when, if for what you consider to be very good reason, you have the gumption to trust your ears. Quite simply, pooh-poohing everything that contradicts your belief system, and blindly obeying text books, is no way to learn.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  9. #119
    Join Date: Aug 2008

    Location: Suffolk, UK

    Posts: 1,473
    I'm Paul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    An interesting conjecture. I suppose it is not impossible but it does seem very unlikely to be true. Whereas the psychological explanation is highly likely to be true.
    While not as prevalent or as dratic as marketing departments would have you believe, I think you’d be surprised how likely such things can be. I do agree that you can more than likely just be convincing yourself of a difference. Thats why if I feel a minor change has made a difference good or bad I tend to leave it in place for at least a few days, to see how it bears out and then revert back and see how that goes for a few days and then repeat. I find that building the consensus over time helps counter the potential to be just convincing yourself of a difference.
    ~Paul~

  10. #120
    Join Date: Sep 2009

    Location: Derbyshire

    Posts: 9,212
    I'm Josie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Absolutely, Dominic. And I respect your contrary experience.

    For me, however, there's a danger of allowing your natural senses and thought processes to become bogged down/governed by 'what is deemed as correct', based on currently accepted wisdom. It stifles free thought, which I'm vehemently against.

    Maybe 9 times out of 10 currently accepted wisdom is right, but what about the other time when it might not be, or in fact isn't - or are we saying that we unquestionably know all there is to know about cables, and how they influence the behaviour of audio equipment: everything that needs proving has already been proven - and so there is nothing new to learn?

    For me, that's far from the case and constitutes as lazy thinking, liable to stifle progress, just as much as blindly believing in any kind of 'foo', invented by and claimed as true, by cable manufacturers.

    There has to be a point in the final analysis when, if for what you consider to be very good reason, you have the gumption to trust your ears. Quite simply, pooh-poohing everything that contradicts your belief system, and blindly obeying text books, is no way to learn.

    Marco.
    Indeed. As we all know, Hifi isn't a static entity, it's constantly changing and like music itself people need to open up and try different things but at the same time initiate a degree of 'caveat emptor' about some products on the market costing bonkers money.

    IME mains cables can make a difference but not all agree. Just as long as people have tried and have an educated (yet open) opinion I don't mind... Standing back behind the line slinging mud is just useless.

    When I moved from standard leads to Mark Grant cables I was really surprised. Once that became the norm I tried others but the effect wasn't as profound. My next move is to get kitted out with some Furuwakky stuff. - I've tried one cable and heard a good difference but IME the real magic is when all of your cables are replaced...
    Ultrafide U500DC power amplifier - Croft Vitale )highly modified) - TRIO L-07D Turntable - Denon DL103C1 - Funk Firm Houdini - Lentek MC head amp - 15" Tannoy Monitor Gold Loudspeakers in Lockwood Major cabinets (From Trident Studios) - Tannoyista SPEC 3 Custom Crossovers - VanDamme Black Speaker Cable


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