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Thread: Do mains cables make a difference??

  1. #141
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 21,947
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    But that's not what I'm saying... And I'm not "jumping to the wrong conclusions" either.

    I've reached the conclusions I have after 20 years of experimenting with mains and signal cables, the results of which have satisfied my judgement criteria. They may not be right, but they satisfy me, and so that being the case, I'm happy to believe they're true.

    For me, that's a practical and realistic approach...

    Therefore, I'm asking at what point, after being confident that you know how something works (as far as possible), and having researched the 'facts', do you simply trust your ears, even if what you're hearing appears to contradict it?

    Essentially it comes down to this:

    At what point could "imagination land" become reality if, despite seemingly being disproved by currently accepted wisdom, what you're hearing was true?

    Marco.
    You don't have any guarantees. Subjective impressions are just that and imagination land indistinguishable from reality providing nothing interrupts the illusion.

    You'll note that I have no issues with people selling, buying and using fancy mains cables, it is only when people claim that they have an effect other than the psychological that I become interested in the debate.
    Martin



    Current Lash Up:

    Technics SLP1200 CD Player * NVA P90SA passive pre / Krell KSA50S Power amp * JM Lab Electra 926 loudspeakers *


    'This is the sort of music I'd be listening to if I was going shopping for a training bra.'

  2. #142
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 21,947
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Moreover, extrapolating things further, can you also see how if what you're hearing *was* true, then blindly believing the contrary, simply because currently accepted wisdom dictates so, could actually stifle progress...?

    Marco.
    Yes, but your putting far too much faith in the idea that 'accepted wisdom is wrong'. it can be wrong but it happens so rarely that it isn't really worth worrying about. And that's in general terms, in the specific field of audio electronics the chance of their being some amazing thing that we did not know about is effectively zero.
    Martin



    Current Lash Up:

    Technics SLP1200 CD Player * NVA P90SA passive pre / Krell KSA50S Power amp * JM Lab Electra 926 loudspeakers *


    'This is the sort of music I'd be listening to if I was going shopping for a training bra.'

  3. #143
    Join Date: Apr 2018

    Location: Cornwall

    Posts: 134
    I'm Dominic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    So you are saying that the contribution that a fancy power cable makes is so subtle that in any situation other than relaxing at home with zero stress and no concerns with expectations from anyone else then it cannot be heard at all?

    Because that sounds like it is the imagination at work to me.

    And it doesn't tally with the various reports I have read where the improvement is described in 'Wife immediately heard the difference from the kitchen ' terms.

    So which is it?
    Both and neither Martin.

    There are no absolutes of generalisms that can be applied. People have different hearing acuity and have widely differering musical tastes, some people can hear a fly fart at 100 paces, some people can't. I have 2 friends that we have listening sessions with, one can probably hear the fly fart, the other just likes the "tone" of what he hears - whatever that is, so what us two hear completely escapes him. That is his world and I am not in a position to berate or mock him.

    I place a lot of credence in the "wife immediately heard the difference from the kitchen" statement, because how unprompted and how unsolicited a statement do you need or want?
    CD player = Vincent
    Pre amp = Rotel RA03
    Power amp = Lyngdorf SDA 2175
    Speaks = Quadral Chromium Style 6

  4. #144
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 80,336
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    You don't have any guarantees. Subjective impressions are just that and imagination land indistinguishable from reality providing nothing interrupts the illusion.
    Indeed, there are no guarantees, but that also applies to the accuracy of 'accepted wisdom'. Sometimes that needs challenging just as much as "imagination land"!

    Lest we all become 'robots', with no thought processes of our own - and I'll fight that to the death.

    Marco.
    http://www.thestainedglasscompany.com

    "A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and gets to bed at night, and in between he does what he wants to do" -- Milan Kundera.

    BE HAPPY EVERYDAY!

  5. #145
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 80,336
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Yes, but your putting far too much faith in the idea that 'accepted wisdom is wrong'...
    Not at all. I'm simply putting faith in the ability of my judgment criteria (and ears), when assessing the efficacy of 'fancy mains leads', to reveal (for me) the truth, which sometimes contradicts 'accepted wisdom'. That's quite different from what you're implying.

    And that's in general terms, in the specific field of audio electronics the chance of their being some amazing thing that we did not know about is effectively zero.
    It's not about the existence of "some amazing thing"... That's just sensationalist nonsense.

    The explanation for the phenomenon in question is far likelier to be much simpler than that, and probably just a case of looking at things differently [thinking 'outside of the box'] and measuring/assessing what needs to be measured/assessed, with apparatus capable of accurately doing so, rather than applying the wrong tool, for the wrong job, or perhaps investigating the wrong area completely, which is partly what I think the problem is.

    Marco.
    http://www.thestainedglasscompany.com

    "A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and gets to bed at night, and in between he does what he wants to do" -- Milan Kundera.

    BE HAPPY EVERYDAY!

  6. #146
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 80,336
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Yes, but your putting far too much faith in the idea that 'accepted wisdom is wrong'...
    Plus, if we're talking about putting too much faith in something, then I'd contend that folk place WAY too much faith in the veracity of 'accepted wisdom', and what is deemed as true by basic electrical theory (when applied to matters such as we're discussing), which is one of the reasons why so little progress has been made in verifying some of audio's, shall we say, more 'contentious' subjective claims!

    Marco.
    http://www.thestainedglasscompany.com

    "A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and gets to bed at night, and in between he does what he wants to do" -- Milan Kundera.

    BE HAPPY EVERYDAY!

  7. #147
    Join Date: Apr 2018

    Location: Cornwall

    Posts: 134
    I'm Dominic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    I think the point of placebos is that you don't know if it's a placebo or not. Same with expectation bias - you're unaware of it.
    After a lovely cup of coffee and thinking about it some more, I simply cannot believe that placebo can enter into my hobby and passion while I am unaware of it.

    Placebo is a purely medical term, whereby a patient is administered a treatment or medication that has no effect whatsoever, yet the patient has been told that an effective one has been administered and shows signs of recovery of their ailment.

    Transferring that same scenario into my hobby and passion is complete bollocks, unless of course a dealer breaks into my home and relieves me of a lot of money for a hugely expensive mains cable he says he has just installed (even though in reality he has done no such thing) and it will sound truly awesome, the best upgrade ever. Lo, I now suffer from the placebo effect and good to his word this new cable sounds awesome, just as he said it would.

    I am starting to bristle . . . . . . .
    CD player = Vincent
    Pre amp = Rotel RA03
    Power amp = Lyngdorf SDA 2175
    Speaks = Quadral Chromium Style 6

  8. #148
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonuffin View Post
    I place a lot of credence in the "wife immediately heard the difference from the kitchen" statement, because how unprompted and how unsolicited a statement do you need or want?
    Indeed. Whilst I don't sign up to the notion of mains cables making DRAMATIC differences to the sound of hi-fi equipment, if the difference is marked enough [better or worse] to cause one's partner, who up until then was completely unaware of what was going on, but who was otherwise familiar with the sound of the system in question, to comment accordingly, then chances are there's something in it.

    Marco.
    http://www.thestainedglasscompany.com

    "A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and gets to bed at night, and in between he does what he wants to do" -- Milan Kundera.

    BE HAPPY EVERYDAY!

  9. #149
    Join Date: Oct 2016

    Location: Bolton, England

    Posts: 1,380
    I'm Andrew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonuffin View Post
    Placebo is a purely medical term, whereby a patient is administered a treatment or medication that has no effect whatsoever, yet the patient has been told that an effective one has been administered and shows signs of recovery of their ailment.

    Transferring that same scenario into my hobby and passion is complete bollocks...
    Complete bollocks? Consider this scenario:
    Someone pays 120 for a mains cable to replace a freebie. The sales literature tells him he's going to hear a wider soundstage, more dynamics etc. In reality it's just an ordinary mains cable with some braided sleaving over the cable and a name printed on it. How is that different from being given a chalk/sugar pill and being told it's a revolutionary new antibiotic?

  10. #150
    Join Date: Aug 2010

    Location: East Midlands

    Posts: 386
    I'm Hugh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonuffin View Post
    Placebo is a purely medical term, whereby a patient is administered a treatment or medication that has no effect whatsoever, yet the patient has been told that an effective one has been administered and shows signs of recovery of their ailment.

    Transferring that same scenario into my hobby and passion is complete bollocks...
    'Placebo' is indeed a purely medical term, however 'The Placebo Effect' is not. I hesitate to use the word 'bollocks' to describe the above. I did consider 'nonsense', but I'll settle for 'ill-informed'.

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