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Thread: My Degritter is here

  1. #51
    Join Date: Apr 2008

    Location: Cheshire, UK

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    I'm Clive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    There is a separate thread for DIY approaches to ultrasonic cleaning. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...ght=ultrasonic

    I looked into it but it’s really not what I want for the living room.

    Yes the commercial machines are a lot more expensive but are far more easy on the eye, far more convenient to use on the fly (clean one record at a time when you want to listen to it - minimal faff) and a lot more marriage-friendly.

    Indeed I don’t see these approaches as competitors at all ...
    Thing is....the diy machines can go in other rooms, eg a utility room, the DIY machines are well priced too. 2,500 Euros for a Degritter is far from marriage friendly.
    TT 1 Trans-Fi Salvation with magnetic bearing + Trans-Fi Terminator T3Pro + London Reference
    TT 2 Garrard 301 with NWA main bearing + OL Encounter mkIII + Ortofon 2M Mono SE
    Digital Fanless i5 Skylake ASUS H110T Windows file server with HDPLEX LPS / Allo USBridge into Ciunas Audio ISO-DAC & Pi/DigiOne into Metrum Musette
    Preamp Hagerman Cornet 2 phono stage, John Chapman's Slagleformer-based AVC-1 into Transcendent Sound Sub Buddy
    Power Amp Temple Audio Monoblocks with Supercap LPS/ 300B WE91 SE Monoblocks
    Bass Amp & DSP Behringer iNuke NU3000DSP x 2
    Speakers 1 Bastanis Sagarmatha Duo with twin baffleless 15" bass drivers per side
    Speakers 2 MarkaudioSota Viotti One

  2. #52
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Berkshire, UK

    Posts: 3,294
    I'm Tom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clive View Post
    Thing is....the diy machines can go in other rooms, eg a utility room, the DIY machines are well priced too. 2,500 Euros for a Degritter is far from marriage friendly.
    Want to play a record and find it’s dirty or noisy? Nothing beats the convenience of putting it in the slot, hitting a button, waiting a couple of minutes and hey presto it’s clean and ready to play.

    I’ve been through the faff of cleaning machines in another room, you end up with pile of dirty records staring at you that get done in fits and starts. Not the same thing at all.

    The DIY approach I’m sure has it’s fans but as I say (and you appear to confirm) the appeal is to a different market.
    Main: Speakers 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys / custom crossovers with Tannoy ST25 supertweeters; Amp - Radford STA100; Pre EAR 912; Vinyl: Thorens TD124 MkII + Ikeda IT345-CR1 9 inch and Ikeda IT-407 12 inch tonearms; Cartridges Stereo - Miyajima Madake, Miyajima Takumi, Ikeda 9TT, SAEC/Excel C3; Mono - Miyajimas - Zero 0.7, Premium 1.0, Edison '78' 4.0 conical, and Shure M44 strapped for mono with several Expert Stylus conicals for different eras of 78s; Phono stage and SUT from EAR 912 + Miyajima ETR-Mono SUT; Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer for equalisation of early mono and 78, switchable in from tape loop; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport, heavily modded AN Kit DAC + Mutec MC3+USB.

    Study: Speakers - Tannoy DC6; Amp: Pass Aleph 'Mini'; tube preamp - Gate Audio tube; Vinyl: Garrard 401 with AT1503 Mk I tonearm and vintage Ortofon SL-15e with matching Ortofon 2-15k SUT; Phono Stage from Gate Audio preamp; Digital - Trichord Genesis III CDP + Arcam rBlink.

  3. #53
    Join Date: Apr 2008

    Location: Cheshire, UK

    Posts: 2,647
    I'm Clive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    Want to play a record and find it’s dirty or noisy? Nothing beats the convenience of putting it in the slot, hitting a button, waiting a couple of minutes and hey presto it’s clean and ready to play.

    I’ve been through the faff of cleaning machines in another room, you end up with pile of dirty records staring at you that get done in fits and starts. Not the same thing at all.

    The DIY approach I’m sure has it’s fans but as I say (and you appear to confirm) the appeal is to a different market.
    I get your point entirely, I suppose there are multiple markets here. I have a Loricraft (as I think you do) in my listening room and could easily accommodate a US machine too but it is a dedicated listing room so there's no WAF issues. Have you done a detailed comparison with the Kirmuss which is less than half the price of the Degritter? 995 starts to become viable, more so with show discounts. €2,500 is too much for many. I would pay €2,500 if the results are spectacularly better that the 400 DIY and 995 Kirmuss.
    TT 1 Trans-Fi Salvation with magnetic bearing + Trans-Fi Terminator T3Pro + London Reference
    TT 2 Garrard 301 with NWA main bearing + OL Encounter mkIII + Ortofon 2M Mono SE
    Digital Fanless i5 Skylake ASUS H110T Windows file server with HDPLEX LPS / Allo USBridge into Ciunas Audio ISO-DAC & Pi/DigiOne into Metrum Musette
    Preamp Hagerman Cornet 2 phono stage, John Chapman's Slagleformer-based AVC-1 into Transcendent Sound Sub Buddy
    Power Amp Temple Audio Monoblocks with Supercap LPS/ 300B WE91 SE Monoblocks
    Bass Amp & DSP Behringer iNuke NU3000DSP x 2
    Speakers 1 Bastanis Sagarmatha Duo with twin baffleless 15" bass drivers per side
    Speakers 2 MarkaudioSota Viotti One

  4. #54
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Berkshire, UK

    Posts: 3,294
    I'm Tom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clive View Post
    I get your point entirely, I suppose there are multiple markets here. I have a Loricraft (as I think you do) in my listening room and could easily accommodate a US machine too but it is a dedicated listing room so there's no WAF issues. Have you done a detailed comparison with the Kirmuss which is less than half the price of the Degritter? 995 starts to become viable, more so with show discounts. €2,500 is too much for many. I would pay €2,500 if the results are spectacularly better that the 400 DIY and 995 Kirmuss.
    Yes I have the Loricraft in the living room, whereas the Moth was in the study ... one of the reasons (apart from the noise) that I used it only a few times a year, in batches, with ear defenders.

    I haven't seen the Kirmuss but from what I do know from the Degritter team, they are going in detail into microscopic analyses of the effects of the different emitter frequencies, much experimentation around positioning of emitters, cooling circuits to keep temperatures at safe levels, and a lot of work on the control software to enable much flexibility in the clean/dry cycles and so on. My sense is that for all it's one button (actually two button) simplicity, they are going all out to build a premium product. They have some seriously qualified engineers working on the product.

    Whether there's a big market at 2500 Euros remains to be seen ... my gut feel says that much over 1500-1600 ('street' price of a top of the range Loricraft) it's going to be a struggle to shift sufficient boxes, but what do I know .. I did get a distinction in the Strategic Marketing module of my MBA many years ago, but obviously I haven't seen the market research data on which I assume the target price was based...
    Main: Speakers 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys / custom crossovers with Tannoy ST25 supertweeters; Amp - Radford STA100; Pre EAR 912; Vinyl: Thorens TD124 MkII + Ikeda IT345-CR1 9 inch and Ikeda IT-407 12 inch tonearms; Cartridges Stereo - Miyajima Madake, Miyajima Takumi, Ikeda 9TT, SAEC/Excel C3; Mono - Miyajimas - Zero 0.7, Premium 1.0, Edison '78' 4.0 conical, and Shure M44 strapped for mono with several Expert Stylus conicals for different eras of 78s; Phono stage and SUT from EAR 912 + Miyajima ETR-Mono SUT; Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer for equalisation of early mono and 78, switchable in from tape loop; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport, heavily modded AN Kit DAC + Mutec MC3+USB.

    Study: Speakers - Tannoy DC6; Amp: Pass Aleph 'Mini'; tube preamp - Gate Audio tube; Vinyl: Garrard 401 with AT1503 Mk I tonearm and vintage Ortofon SL-15e with matching Ortofon 2-15k SUT; Phono Stage from Gate Audio preamp; Digital - Trichord Genesis III CDP + Arcam rBlink.

  5. #55
    Join Date: Apr 2008

    Location: Cheshire, UK

    Posts: 2,647
    I'm Clive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    Whether there's a big market at 2500 Euros remains to be seen ... my gut feel says that much over 1500-1600 ('street' price of a top of the range Loricraft) it's going to be a struggle to shift sufficient boxes, but what do I know .. I did get a distinction in the Strategic Marketing module of my MBA many years ago, but obviously I haven't seen the market research data on which I assume the target price was based...
    I'm in the process of retiring so I expect my marketing skills will become outdated soon; I however recall a nice comment. You are going for a hole in the market but is the a market in your hole?

    Of course costs come into this but has the kickstarter covered these I wonder? Do they want to sell a few at over 2k+ or eg 3 times as many at 1.5k. Can they cope with higher levels of sales? I don't suppose even at 1k there's a market to sell that many so starting out selling it at a premium is worth a try.
    TT 1 Trans-Fi Salvation with magnetic bearing + Trans-Fi Terminator T3Pro + London Reference
    TT 2 Garrard 301 with NWA main bearing + OL Encounter mkIII + Ortofon 2M Mono SE
    Digital Fanless i5 Skylake ASUS H110T Windows file server with HDPLEX LPS / Allo USBridge into Ciunas Audio ISO-DAC & Pi/DigiOne into Metrum Musette
    Preamp Hagerman Cornet 2 phono stage, John Chapman's Slagleformer-based AVC-1 into Transcendent Sound Sub Buddy
    Power Amp Temple Audio Monoblocks with Supercap LPS/ 300B WE91 SE Monoblocks
    Bass Amp & DSP Behringer iNuke NU3000DSP x 2
    Speakers 1 Bastanis Sagarmatha Duo with twin baffleless 15" bass drivers per side
    Speakers 2 MarkaudioSota Viotti One

  6. #56
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Berkshire, UK

    Posts: 3,294
    I'm Tom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clive View Post
    I'm in the process of retiring so I expect my marketing skills will become outdated soon; I however recall a nice comment. You are going for a hole in the market but is the a market in your hole?

    Of course costs come into this but has the kickstarter covered these I wonder? Do they want to sell a few at over 2k+ or eg 3 times as many at 1.5k. Can they cope with higher levels of sales? I don't suppose even at 1k there's a market to sell that many so starting out selling it at a premium is worth a try.
    As it stands, to do what they want to do the way they want to do it, manufacturing costs are pretty high. Whether these can be brought down as production ramps remains to be seen I guess. They are definitely going for a different user than you average 'how cheap can I do this?/out to beat the system' forum goer. But then again so is most of the hifi industry! I can imagine people like us are a bit of a pain in the arse to a lot of the industry.
    Main: Speakers 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys / custom crossovers with Tannoy ST25 supertweeters; Amp - Radford STA100; Pre EAR 912; Vinyl: Thorens TD124 MkII + Ikeda IT345-CR1 9 inch and Ikeda IT-407 12 inch tonearms; Cartridges Stereo - Miyajima Madake, Miyajima Takumi, Ikeda 9TT, SAEC/Excel C3; Mono - Miyajimas - Zero 0.7, Premium 1.0, Edison '78' 4.0 conical, and Shure M44 strapped for mono with several Expert Stylus conicals for different eras of 78s; Phono stage and SUT from EAR 912 + Miyajima ETR-Mono SUT; Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer for equalisation of early mono and 78, switchable in from tape loop; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport, heavily modded AN Kit DAC + Mutec MC3+USB.

    Study: Speakers - Tannoy DC6; Amp: Pass Aleph 'Mini'; tube preamp - Gate Audio tube; Vinyl: Garrard 401 with AT1503 Mk I tonearm and vintage Ortofon SL-15e with matching Ortofon 2-15k SUT; Phono Stage from Gate Audio preamp; Digital - Trichord Genesis III CDP + Arcam rBlink.

  7. #57
    Join Date: Apr 2008

    Location: Cheshire, UK

    Posts: 2,647
    I'm Clive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    I can imagine people like us are a bit of a pain in the arse to a lot of the industry.
    That's very true. I'm in contact with a speaker company who are to introduce a speaker priced at several thousand pounds. The sound is nice....ie safe without being incisive. It'll be impressive but not what we might think of as high end. The market is for people with lots of money but not hifi nerds or forum users....we just don't spend that sort or money or if we do it's for something more special but more demanding too.
    TT 1 Trans-Fi Salvation with magnetic bearing + Trans-Fi Terminator T3Pro + London Reference
    TT 2 Garrard 301 with NWA main bearing + OL Encounter mkIII + Ortofon 2M Mono SE
    Digital Fanless i5 Skylake ASUS H110T Windows file server with HDPLEX LPS / Allo USBridge into Ciunas Audio ISO-DAC & Pi/DigiOne into Metrum Musette
    Preamp Hagerman Cornet 2 phono stage, John Chapman's Slagleformer-based AVC-1 into Transcendent Sound Sub Buddy
    Power Amp Temple Audio Monoblocks with Supercap LPS/ 300B WE91 SE Monoblocks
    Bass Amp & DSP Behringer iNuke NU3000DSP x 2
    Speakers 1 Bastanis Sagarmatha Duo with twin baffleless 15" bass drivers per side
    Speakers 2 MarkaudioSota Viotti One

  8. #58
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Berkshire, UK

    Posts: 3,294
    I'm Tom.

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    Well the Degritter is back, the latest Beta version, getting closer to what will be the release product, but not quite yet. It seems that one of the mods is to have made the fan quieter, (significantly quieter it seemed to me), so I downloaded a db measurement tool on my iPhone. Not calibrated of course so this can only be indicative, but an interesting exercise all the same.

    All measured at 1m from the device. These figures are maxima within each cycle, at times both machines were slightly quieter than this. Room background was 39db - it’s quiet here! (Measurements were done around 10pm). Note also that the Degritter is still in development so these numbers may well change again for the better before full production).

    Degritter on Medium cycle (presets are Quick, Medium and Heavy and clean/dry time can each be customised to any value between 0 and 5 minutes on each cycle)

    - Washing 62db - 3 minutes (Medium default)
    - Drying 62db - 3 minutes (Medium default)

    Total 6 minutes

    Audio Desk Vinyl Pro - only one cycle available, not variable

    - Washing 64db - 1 minute 30
    - Drying 73db - 4 minutes 30

    Total 6 minutes

    As you can see the Audio Desk is MUCH noisier during the dry cycle and it’s also less smooth in its noise over both cycles. And not any quicker overall to compensate. I was impressed that the Degritter drying number is barely louder than the one when cleaning which is an impressive leap forward.

    Beyond the noise question ... my impression remains that both clean rather well. I think the Audio Desk gets away with the shorter cleaning cycle as it has the spinning brushes which I think do help its effectiveness, but at the end of the six minute combined cycle time there isn't much if anything between the two, while of course for very dirty records the Degritter cleaning time can be increased up to five minutes which would certainly be beneficial for charity shop finds etc.

    Best clean of all was still when I did a single clean once each side on the Loricraft using an alcohol mix cleaner with surfactant and a bush, then vacuum, before putting them in the ultrasonic machines. Without the ultrasonic machines I generally would do three cleans either side so that’s still saving a huge amount of time and effort, while the overall result is better than can be achieved with the Loricraft alone.

    Beyond that, as devices to live with, having both of them side by side ... for my taste looks and ergonomics of the Degritter work better and for me, while the controllability is something that I don't think that I could live without, having had it. Not to say that the AudioDesk isn't a good machine - it works perfectly well - but I don't think I'd want to swap.

    Crap pic taken in artificial light I'll try and get a better one.

    Last edited by montesquieu; 25-07-2018 at 23:32.
    Main: Speakers 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys / custom crossovers with Tannoy ST25 supertweeters; Amp - Radford STA100; Pre EAR 912; Vinyl: Thorens TD124 MkII + Ikeda IT345-CR1 9 inch and Ikeda IT-407 12 inch tonearms; Cartridges Stereo - Miyajima Madake, Miyajima Takumi, Ikeda 9TT, SAEC/Excel C3; Mono - Miyajimas - Zero 0.7, Premium 1.0, Edison '78' 4.0 conical, and Shure M44 strapped for mono with several Expert Stylus conicals for different eras of 78s; Phono stage and SUT from EAR 912 + Miyajima ETR-Mono SUT; Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer for equalisation of early mono and 78, switchable in from tape loop; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport, heavily modded AN Kit DAC + Mutec MC3+USB.

    Study: Speakers - Tannoy DC6; Amp: Pass Aleph 'Mini'; tube preamp - Gate Audio tube; Vinyl: Garrard 401 with AT1503 Mk I tonearm and vintage Ortofon SL-15e with matching Ortofon 2-15k SUT; Phono Stage from Gate Audio preamp; Digital - Trichord Genesis III CDP + Arcam rBlink.

  9. #59
    Join Date: Apr 2015

    Location: Central Virginia

    Posts: 1,297
    I'm Russell.

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    I definitely prefer the looks of the Degritter, nice looking unit.

    Russell

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