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Thread: Best Telefunken ECC83?

  1. #11
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    I am intrigued by the notion of different national characters of valves, and the resulting need to establish a sort of United Nations or European Community of valves to prevent one type of valve invading Poland or whatever. I wonder what the national characteristics are of non-German valves?

    British - pragmatic, dogged, but a bit lazy and prone to not working for long periods.

    Japanese - hard-working, but wily and inscrutable.

    Russian - reliable, but a tad assertive and need watching carefully. Avoid mixing them with US valves.

    US - brash, insensitive, forward-sounding.

    Chinese - multifarious.

  2. #12
    Join Date: Jan 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe View Post
    I am intrigued by the notion of different national characters of valves, and the resulting need to establish a sort of United Nations or European Community of valves to prevent one type of valve invading Poland or whatever. I wonder what the national characteristics are of non-German valves?

    British - pragmatic, dogged, but a bit lazy and prone to not working for long periods.

    Japanese - hard-working, but wily and inscrutable.

    Russian - reliable, but a tad assertive and need watching carefully. Avoid mixing them with US valves.

    US - brash, insensitive, forward-sounding.

    Chinese - multifarious.


    However it's not quite as simple as that - two British brands: Brimar and Mullard are either British/American (the first), or wholly Dutch (the second). I'm not sure about Mazda or Marconi, but suspect they are re-badged Brimars.
    Barry

  3. #13
    Join Date: Jan 2008

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    Hi Jim,

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Good Observation Marco regarding mixing of valve types! I have experienced this myself and have pondered the question why. I have had better results with a mix of valves (different in PSU and phono stage) than if I use all the same. Maybe certain valves work better in different positions and what is needed for great sonics in the phono stage may not what is required in power supply or voltage regulation?
    I don't think it's so much a case of the latter, as that will simply come down to which is most electrically suitable in a particular circuit.

    You'll have heard what I have, by mixing different valves (of the same type), from different manufacturers, simply as a result of the effects of their (varying) constructions, such as anode plate/mica/getter structure, how the valve concerned has been designed to help eliminate the effects of vibration, different pin/base materials, etc, and even the size and construction of the glass tube itself.

    Just because, say a Mullard ECC83 and a Telefunken ECC83, perform the same electrical function, doesn't necessarily mean that they will sound the same!

    And if they don't sound the same, then their respective sonic signatures, just like with cables, will influence what you hear accordingly, which is why you can hit upon certain combinations that just 'work' (better than others), simply because they combine to create a sound you like, and which works with (rather than against) how your system has been 'voiced' [as a result of the choices you've made to date, in that respect, perhaps inadvertently].

    Hope that makes sense?

    Marco.
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  4. #14
    Join Date: Jan 2013

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    I'm James.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Hi Jim,



    I don't think it's so much a case of the latter, as that will simply come down to which is most electrically suitable in a particular circuit.

    You'll have heard what I have, by mixing different valves (of the same type), from different manufacturers, simply as a result of the effects of their (varying) constructions, such as anode plate/mica/getter structure, how the valve concerned has been designed to help eliminate the effects of vibration, different pin/base materials, etc, and even the size and construction of the glass tube itself.

    Just because, say a Mullard ECC83 and a Telefunken ECC83, perform the same electrical function, it doesn't necessarily mean that they will sound the same!

    And if they don't sound the same, then their respective sonic signatures, just like with cables, will influence what you hear accordingly, which is why you can hit upon certain combinations that just 'work' (better than others), simply because they combine to create a sound you like, and which works with (rather than against) how your system has been 'voiced' [as a result of the choices you've made to date, in that respect].

    Hope that makes sense?

    Marco.
    Makes sense mate. I have been through dozens of valves in the last 3 years and am constantly surprised how valves from just one particular manufacturer/Brand can sound so different depending which year they were manufactured. They obviously evolved the technology and subtly changed the 'Ingredients' over time as many were trying to simply get a valve to last as long as possible. I wonder how much thought went into the actual sound of the valve. Did they try different materials and listen to them in order to voice a valve or were they developed purely for longlevity?

  5. #15
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    I wouldn't have said purely for longevity for 'normal' valves, as the SQ types such as E88CC and the like were made for long service.

    I can only guess that none of the low frequency valves were voiced by listening to them, just developed to give a certain gain figure or low noise.

    Many of the valves intended for high frequency operation, eg TV's, will have been developed with low capacitances in mind or with variable gain factors dependent on the valve biasing. It is a happy circumstance that a lot of these can be used effectively at audio frequencies.


  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebottle View Post
    I wouldn't have said purely for longevity for 'normal' valves, as the SQ types such as E88CC and the like were made for long service.

    I can only guess that none of the low frequency valves were voiced by listening to them, just developed to give a certain gain figure or low noise.

    Many of the valves intended for high frequency operation, eg TV's, will have been developed with low capacitances in mind or with variable gain factors dependent on the valve biasing. It is a happy circumstance that a lot of these can be used effectively at audio frequencies.

    So valves were only developed to meet a technical specification? I suppose back then how they sounded was not a concern?

  7. #17
    Join Date: May 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post


    However it's not quite as simple as that - two British brands: Brimar and Mullard are either British/American (the first), or wholly Dutch (the second). I'm not sure about Mazda or Marconi, but suspect they are re-badged Brimars.
    Mullard always makes me think of Arthur Mullard, with associations of weight and dullness. However, I've only ever used US or Chinese valves.

  8. #18
    Join Date: Jan 2014

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    I just had visions of Telefunken Valves goose stepping all over Europe while the plucky Mullards scarper across the channel in various small ships....

  9. #19
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    You can measure the change in your systems FR really easily after a valve roll. I did it with 4 different quads of 211 valves.

    Just sayin' it's all real - for the doubters, that's all.

  10. #20
    Join Date: Oct 2011

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    Said it before and I'll say it again... Having rolled many vintage ECC83s and their variants, IME the best by a long distance- in numerous valve applications- is the uber-rare foil getter, welded plate Tungsram ECC83 ('58-'63) Nothing else I have tried comes close.

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