Hi all ya!

[tunepirate]

Hi Christian and welcome

So do you aspire to a full Linn system one day !

i have been to a few Linn dem's in my time ' and of course the tune is important in a piece of music ' but i can follow a tune quite easily on a cheap tranny radio ' when i look to buy more expensive hifi kit ' i want more than just a good tuneful sound .

I want my system to try an convey the illusion of musicians performing in front of me ' an impossible task ' yes it probably is but i heard a Horn based system at Scalford that got very close ! and i can tell you it was at times quite breathtaking .

You'll get a lot more than just good tune from new linn-equipment.
But I've been to many linnstores myself and wonder why it sounds so bad compared to having the things at home.. quite crappy listening rooms often i think, weird reflections, what you would never get at home in a normal living room.

In order to get the feeling that the musicians are performing in front of you, you need to get the musicality correct. Because that's one of the important aspects of going from a blurry playback to an open window, but of course you need resolution, details, soundstage and punch as well for that.

What's the difference between sound and music? It's timing pace rhythm..

What's the difference between a good and a bad band... timing, that the musicians are playing together, swing!.

It's the same between different hifi equipment, on many stereos the band isn't playing nearly as tightly as they were in the recording studio. Phase shift or whatever is the technical explanation thing behind this, timing differences between different frequency, but also if the speakers are not placed correct( I have mine tuned in on the millimeter), you'll get the sound reflections in the room disturbing the timing, and making it less an open window to the music.

Many people even are having their sub woofer coming milliseconds after and they're noticing anything, and is just leave the room with headache And they still think their system is transparent Well it might be quite transparent in the tone but, not in the essence of the music, the playing together. How many know that if the sub is lagging after the drummer will not sound as good as he was in the recording studio.
And if there are timing distortions, the sound is crinkled in some way.
Even diffrent cables are crinkling the sound in diffrent ways, and again, Linn black is the best I've heard here. I've been doing some blind testing together with a friend here.

Another problem with that you want the musicians to sound if they are standing in front of you is that, everyone on the stage have their separate mic cable going to their instrument, so through the mixer if not panned exactly everyone will sound if they're standing in the middle. So the soundstage is an artificial creation, because it's not recorded that way. Except if you don't record it with only two microphones, from the audience. Buth then again if it's a rock concert you'll get lots of weird echoes..
But you probably already new that..

If you'd had a 100 00€ preiced linn equipment for two years and then went back and listened to that horn equipment, you probably would think, where the heck the music went, even tough the sound probably was nice

Themis: The tune method and the PRAT were developed back in the 70's some time.. i think this link explains some of it..
http://www.tnt-audio.com/edcorner/prat_e.html

[The Vinyl Adventure]

blimey... you do like you linn kit dont you.
even i dont think its all its cracked up to be and i got linn in my system! the linn black cable didnt work well at all in my system either ... but there we go like i said on that other thread and would highlight again here - different strokes for different folks.

[tunepirate]

blimey... you do like you linn kit dont you.
even i dont think its all its cracked up to be and i got linn in my system! the linn black cable didnt work well at all in my system either ... but there we go like i said on that other thread and would highlight again here - different strokes for different folks.

I wouldn't agree for a second. To say that less musical system is preferd for some people is like saying that some prefer a more muddled sound. That's just stupid, who would want bad, when there is good to get.

Of course different people prefer different colouring, but most people agree that neutral is the way to go, if one want to listen to a broad variety of music. Most of those people do not understand that musicality is an important part of neutrality.

when people learn to hear differences in musical flow, they wouldn't go with just any.
The only reason people buy equipment from brands that do not put high priority in musicality is because they can't tell the difference, and they've missed the most important factor(this goes for 90% of the hifi people out there). Many people have this idéa that different systems can't vary in swing/timing. Many of these people end up with having their systems turned of most of the time.

I don't have a linn system yet, that was just an example
But I hopefully will get one, one day.

Why didn't the black work in you system?

[tunepirate]

These are the brands that I know of that put high value in musicality.

Rega
System fidelity
Naim
Linn
Grado
Alpine
Sennheiser?
Musical fidelity?
Beresford?

These are the only(sadly) few brands that guarantee you, that if you pay more, you'll get more.
Linn
Alpine
Grado
Lejonklou
(Naim)

[tunepirate]

Hello! Welcome to AoS. Now worried I might have timing problems - how can I tell?

We all have
Do you think your system makes you wanna dance or does it give you headache, after some time on. Does it sound like the musicians are having a good time on the stage,, does it sound light and swiftly...


What parts do you have in you system?

[Marco]

Lol! Welcome to AOS, Cristian - I'm sure you'll have lots of fun here

Do you post on pfm under a different name?

Marco.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I wouldn't agree for a second. To say that less musical system is preferd for some people is like saying that some prefer a more muddled sound. That's just stupid, who would want bad, when there is good to get.

Of course different people prefer different colouring, but most people agree that neutral is the way to go, if one want to listen to a broad variety of music. Most of those people do not understand that musicality is an important part of neutrality.

when people learn to hear differences in musical flow, they wouldn't go with just any.
The only reason people buy equipment from brands that do not put high priority in musicality is because they can't tell the difference, and they've missed the most important factor(this goes for 90% of the hifi people out there). Many people have this idéa that different systems can't vary in swing/timing. Many of these people end up with having their systems turned of most of the time.

im just a bit confused by your assumptions that people would always go back to listening to linn after they listened to anything else. there are loads of people on this site with vast knowledge and experience of loads of equipment including linn.. but very few have any linn kit. i actually bought an external dac to add to my linn majik ds as by its self i found it less musically involving

I don't have a linn system yet, that was just an example
But I hopefully will get one, one day.

Why didn't the black work in you system?

in my system they didnt apear to be quite as neutral aand definately not as trasparent as the mark grant cables i now use

[Stratmangler]

Hi Cristian

I can tell that you like your distortion to sound in a particular way.
I prefer my distortion to be more neutral - that's not to say that my kit is incapable of "keeping time" as you put it, it's just that my kit replays rhythm when it is present in the recording.

What instrument do you play ?

[tunepirate]

Hi Cristian

I can tell that you like your distortion to sound in a particular way.
I prefer my distortion to be more neutral - that's not to say that my kit is incapable of "keeping time" as you put it, it's just that my kit replays rhythm when it is present in the recording.

What instrument do you play ?

This is what I'm trying to say, tune dem, is a method to discern wheter the rhythm is coming when it was recorded or not.
Most people who think their equipemtn is neutral does not have an eqipment that is true to the original recording in the timing. It took me a while to learn it, but when me and my friend finally did, we realised how crappy his 1100£ pre/amp system was and he got a better one from system fidelity for £200 (sa-250)and a new world opened up for us.
I don't know what system you have, but some of the systems that the transparent/neutral-hifi people recommend in sweden, i wouldn't let it in through my door even if i got it for free.

If you had for example a majik DS, and then switched back to your source you would probably notice how things, weren't as in place as you thought.
Unless you have a very special dac or something that is very musical.
Linn has been researching and working on getting the timing as linear as possible for the last 40years... That's their vision, so it's nothing strange that they're best at it.

Linn sources are famous for being all round working with many different kinds of music, that is because it doesn't favour one kind of music by adding something, especially in the timing. Their older products can be a bit colouring in the tone sometimes I've heard, but still low colouring in the timing.

Hamish: What dac are you using... ?
Why are you wasting a pricey majik DS on using it as a transport...?
or maybe it's not a waste, have you expeience that it is better than many cheap transports?

IT's unusual that dac's are more muiscal involving beacuse they are limited by the clocks. The send clock and the receive clock need to be very close in speed to not get big losses in the data,it's millions bits per second, so it's very critical.. beacuse as you probably know there's no errer correcting protocol in the spdif transfer. But I've heard the Majik DS is a very good transport.
The DS uses error correcting protocol because it's achieving it's data via tcp/ip, that's one reason that it many times is superior to dac's. Or actually there's no linn dealer that i've spoken to that have ever heard of any other brand achiving this level of correctness in the timing as the DS's.(except for the new naim dac, which is at majik DS level)
The other thing is that the implementation is very good, to achieve more correct timing. The cuircut need to be in a good balance..

[tunepirate]

to clear something out..
Timing has nothing to do with the speed of the playback, it's about the relationsships between the diffrent intruments. Which in technical terms is about frequencies not being separeted in time by fase shits and things..
and probably other modulations that i don't understand... but hear.

Here's another way to put it!

"However, nearly everyone else now uses the 'T' in PRaT to stand for 'Timing'. Timing is not the same thing as Rhythm or Pace, but it is related. Timing is the accuracy of reproduction of a wavefront comprising many frequencies. Hence a strike of stick on ride cymbal simultaneous with the other stick on the floor-tom should arrive at the hifi listener's ears in the same relationship as they would had the listener been sitting in front of the drum kit rather than their loudspeakers. The most sinful adulterers of timing tend to be multi-way loudspeakers. One glance at the phase graph of a single drive unit would suggest this is already a problem for 1 driver, but combine 2 drive units with a crossover whose filter is derived by phase shift and we realise how tough a task it really is to make music in the home. " (http://www.tnt-audio.com/edcorner/prat_e.html)