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Thread: What the Heck?

  1. #21
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 18,158
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ammonite Acoustics View Post
    Going to the other extreme, how about a 7” tonearm with zero offset?

    https://theaudiophileman.com/rigid-f...earm-viv-labs/

    I’d love to hear one of these.
    It's perfectly possible to have an arm with zero angular offset (and hence no need for any provision of anti-skating), but in only having one degree of freedom in the geometry (which in this case will mean the arm underhangs the turntable spigot), there will only be one point on the record playing surface where the tracking error is zero.
    Have you listened to this month's choice in the Album Club?

    Barry

  2. #22
    Join Date: Sep 2014

    Location: brighton uk.

    Posts: 3,353
    I'm jamie.

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    barry,going back to the link you posted,whats you view on inner and outer groove radius's.
    he seems to advocate 56-58mm for the inner,rather like the JIS 1981 standard size of 57.6mm.
    what are the benefits of changing the sizes of the inner/outer groove radius's ?
    i know from playing with them on the conrad hoffman arc protractor program you it effects the offset angle.
    My System/ Yamaha NS1000M speakers ,Pioneer PLC-590 turntable,Pioneer PA-5000,Alphason HR-100S-MCS,Zeta tonearms,Denon 103SA Cartridge's,Denon HA-500 Head Amp, John Wood KT88 Valve Amp,Sony 700ES Amp,Sony X555ES CD Player, Nakamichi ca5 pre amp ,

  3. #23
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 18,158
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    I've never measured the average inner groove radii for any of the LPs in my collection - life's too short.

    Rather, I assume the arm manufacturer has done his sums and that the alignment protractor provided is correct. Most alignment protractors have null points at 66mm and 121mm; corresponding to inner and outer groove radii of 60.3mm and 146mm respectively.

    Yes, small changes to the inner groove radius will change the offset angle as well as the overhang. Whereas the overhang is readily adjustable, the offset angle is not. So with a change of inner groove radius, and with a fixed offset angle and effective arm length, I would recalculate the null radii and mark them on an existing alignment protractor to set up the arm

    http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...earm-alignment
    Have you listened to this month's choice in the Album Club?

    Barry

  4. #24
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Norwich

    Posts: 728
    I'm Mike.

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    BARRY, thanks for the Stereophile link, the contents of which surprise me. What on Earth, therefore, is TRACING error? I'm beginning to wonder if this is simply a linguistic difference (American v British English).

    After all, when one talks about TRACKING, one is referring to the cart's ability to stay in the groove without distortion. TRACING would, i.m.o., be the correct word for following a geometric line, more with reference to a tonearm rather than the cart.

    Utterly baffled here, as when this subject has come up on forums previously, it's always been as I'd conceived the differences between the two terms; one concerns the geometry and t'other the physical connection between stylus and groove.

  5. #25
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Norwich

    Posts: 2,437
    I'm Hugo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Reed View Post
    BARRY, thanks for the Stereophile link, the contents of which surprise me. What on Earth, therefore, is TRACING error? I'm beginning to wonder if this is simply a linguistic difference (American v British English).

    After all, when one talks about TRACKING, one is referring to the cart's ability to stay in the groove without distortion. TRACING would, i.m.o., be the correct word for following a geometric line, more with reference to a tonearm rather than the cart.

    Utterly baffled here, as when this subject has come up on forums previously, it's always been as I'd conceived the differences between the two terms; one concerns the geometry and t'other the physical connection between stylus and groove.
    I believe you are correct.

  6. #26
    Join Date: Sep 2014

    Location: brighton uk.

    Posts: 3,353
    I'm jamie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I've never measured the average inner groove radii for any of the LPs in my collection - life's too short.

    Rather, I assume the arm manufacturer has done his sums and that the alignment protractor provided is correct. Most alignment protractors have null points at 66mm and 121mm; corresponding to inner and outer groove radii of 60.3mm and 146mm respectively.

    Yes, small changes to the inner groove radius will change the offset angle as well as the overhang. Whereas the overhang is readily adjustable, the offset angle is not. So with a change of inner groove radius, and with a fixed offset angle and effective arm length, I would recalculate the null radii and mark them on an existing alignment protractor to set up the arm

    http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...earm-alignment
    What I’ve found Barry is the figures for my arm (zeta) are spindle to pivot is 210.6, effective length of 228.6, offset is 23.75 with an over hang of 18mm.
    Now if I put the effective length or spindle to pivot figures into the vinyl engine calculator the offset and overhang figures don’t match. You can get them close by changing the inner and outer radius’s but not excactly.

    I don’t have a zeta original protractor so in the end I mounted it at 211 and went with linn alignment.
    My System/ Yamaha NS1000M speakers ,Pioneer PLC-590 turntable,Pioneer PA-5000,Alphason HR-100S-MCS,Zeta tonearms,Denon 103SA Cartridge's,Denon HA-500 Head Amp, John Wood KT88 Valve Amp,Sony 700ES Amp,Sony X555ES CD Player, Nakamichi ca5 pre amp ,

  7. #27
    Join Date: Apr 2016

    Location: souf east for work

    Posts: 967
    I'm paul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Lol - great pic, but that arm's a joke, and will almost certainly sound like it!

    12" arms? Undoubtedly technically superior to 9" ones (for reasons given), but most I've heard sound a bit laid back, despite their otherwise good points (smoothness and bass weight) compared with even the best 9-inchers. Oi

    For me, however, the latter have a zesty/dynamic 'get-up-and-go', and 'fun factor', absent in their 12" counterparts, which I need for my music listening.

    Some say 10" arms offer the best compromise between both - sentiments my instincts tell me could be right - which is why at some point, sooner rather than later, I intend to test that theory

    Marco.
    should be interesting when I get my Stax UA-7 9" arm working and compare with the UA-70 12" arm. The exact same arm other than the wand and removable headshell so can try with the same cart. I found it difficult to hear any difference between 9" and 12" unipivots I've used. Certainly nothing to stress about, then I'm totally relaxed about music playback these days.
    Sony STR 6055 Denon DP80 Stax UA-70 Shure Ultra 500 Zu omen

    Office system, DIY CSS fullrange speakers with aurum cantus G2 ribbons Najda dsp as dac Akai AM-U02 Jvc QL-A51 direct drive turntable
    SAE1000LT leema sub. JVC Z4S cart is in the house

    Garage system another Sony receiver, cassette deck and full range drivers in free air


    System components are subject to change without warning and at the discretion of the owner.

  8. #28
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: W Lothian

    Posts: 45,998
    I'm Grant.

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    i dont bother with any of that just bung on the geodisc and slide the arm til stylus is in the dot. job done
    Regards,
    Grant ....

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: democracy simply-doesn't-work
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  9. #29
    Join Date: Sep 2014

    Location: brighton uk.

    Posts: 3,353
    I'm jamie.

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    Well that’s kinda what I did in using the linn protractor,I’m just interested why gb tools who made my arm went with 210.6 instead of 211 mounting distance.
    My System/ Yamaha NS1000M speakers ,Pioneer PLC-590 turntable,Pioneer PA-5000,Alphason HR-100S-MCS,Zeta tonearms,Denon 103SA Cartridge's,Denon HA-500 Head Amp, John Wood KT88 Valve Amp,Sony 700ES Amp,Sony X555ES CD Player, Nakamichi ca5 pre amp ,

  10. #30
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 18,158
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Reed View Post
    BARRY, thanks for the Stereophile link, the contents of which surprise me. What on Earth, therefore, is TRACING error? I'm beginning to wonder if this is simply a linguistic difference (American v British English).

    After all, when one talks about TRACKING, one is referring to the cart's ability to stay in the groove without distortion. TRACING would, i.m.o., be the correct word for following a geometric line, more with reference to a tonearm rather than the cart.

    Utterly baffled here, as when this subject has come up on forums previously, it's always been as I'd conceived the differences between the two terms; one concerns the geometry and t'other the physical connection between stylus and groove.
    Indeed it does: the former is called tracking error, the latter is called tracing error. It's not a matter of semantics, and whilst I'm sympathetic to your entomological argument (I used to have a similar problem with the designation of 'inner' and 'outer' lanes on motorways), I'm afraid the terms "tracking" and "tracing" have already been defined.

    http://www.richardbrice.net/LP%20dis...mpensation.htm
    Have you listened to this month's choice in the Album Club?

    Barry

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