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  1. #31
    Join Date: Apr 2009

    Location: Near Saffron Walden, Essex

    Posts: 7,087
    I'm Dave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martyn Miles View Post
    You have much more experience, Dave.
    Not according to the HUG I don't..

  2. #32
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: West Sūžsēaxe

    Posts: 2,015
    I'm Edward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by walpurgis View Post
    I hear differences with every amp I try. I have six sets of amplification available and each sounds different through my system. Yes, they're decent amps and my speakers are easy to drive, but very revealing.
    Quote Originally Posted by hifi_dave View Post
    Differences between amps is not as noticeable as differences between speakers but there all the same. I've never had, as I recall, any customer who couldn't reliably tell the difference between amps, providing the rest of the system is up to it. Whether the difference is worth spending money on is down to the individual.
    ditto on all counts. I have (so far as I recall) 5 different amps and notice differences between all of them, however the differences are minor and are of texture, quality, warmth and suchlike. The biggest differences I hear when switching are with speakers. I would go further and say the second biggest differences are between different DACs. All of this assumes a clean source.
    Current: [P20] Roon/Tidal > Custom PC> Chevron Paradox NDF16 > Phast Pre > Neuro. 686 > Tannoy Berkley (RFC tweaks)


  3. #33
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: N E Kent

    Posts: 51,624
    I'm Geoff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edwardlon View Post
    I would go further and say the second biggest differences are between different DACs.
    I've found that too. And even audible differences between digital cables, which some I'm sure would tell us is impossible.
    It is impossible for anything digital to sound analogue, because it isn't analogue!

  4. #34
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    In terms of hearing fundamental differences between 'competently designed' amplifiers, much depends on the price of the amps concerned, the technology used (valve or SS), and where the money has been spent. It also depends on whether you're judging just sound, or musical ability.

    Lots of amplifiers will make a 'nice enough noise', initially, but only the best ones truly draw you into the music - and that's where the big differences lie, and also what costs money!

    For example, I'm sure that this Cambridge amplifier, from Richer Sounds, has been 'competently designed' and sounds perfectly good: https://www.richersounds.com/cambridge-cxa60-blk.html

    But if compared with something, say, like Gazjam's bespoke-built (by Nick Gorham) 300B, or my KT150 Copper amp, which are both 'competently designed', but valve amps, and also rather more expensive than the Cambridge above, thus allowing the respective designers more of a 'free rein', as it were to optimise their equipment, then although the Cambridge has been 'competently designed', it will not have the same musical ability.

    It's easy to design an amplifier that makes a 'nice enough noise', but far harder to make one that truly draws you into the music, which you can listen to for hours, day after day, and that never disappoints, no matter what music you throw at it.

    That's the important bit, and something that may not be instantly obvious in a quickfire comparison, but only when you live with a piece of equipment for a while, so that its musical abilities have time to grow on you. Although, to be honest, in terms of the examples given above, I'd expect the differences to be obvious, even on the first listen!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  5. #35
    Join Date: Apr 2009

    Location: Near Saffron Walden, Essex

    Posts: 7,087
    I'm Dave.

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    Agree totally. Some amplifiers draw you in and are exciting and moving, whilst others are flat and uninvolving.

    But listening to amps isn't an option on the HUG. The official position is that all competently designed amps sound the same if they measure the same. In fact, it goes one stage further and amps are chosen because they measure well and nothing to do with how they sound. That's the part I cannot agree with.

  6. #36
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hifi_dave View Post
    Agree totally. Some amplifiers draw you in and are exciting and moving, whilst others are flat and uninvolving.
    And chances are BOTH will have been 'competently designed'!

    But listening to amps isn't an option on the HUG. The official position is that all competently designed amps sound the same if they measure the same. In fact, it goes one stage further and amps are chosen because they measure well and nothing to do with how they sound. That's the part I cannot agree with.
    You should read the posts on the following thread, from both Dennis and me. They examine the psychological condition we suspect is responsible for such thinking: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...809#post925809

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  7. #37
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Witney Oxon

    Posts: 893
    I'm Martyn.

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    Speaking of amplifiers 'drawing you into the music', my experience with a Pro-ject 7 amp. from the '90s is an interesting
    one.
    A somewhat 'quirky' model, but had the ability to make you forget the kit and concentrate on the music.
    Much more so than an Arcam Alpha 5 amp. which replaced it, bought as it had more facilities than the
    Pro-ject 7.
    Ho hum, kit you wished you'd kept...

  8. #38
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,779
    I'm Martin.

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    There is a theory that Harbeth promote the idea that you don't need a fancy amp with their speakers so that the punter has enough budget left to be able to be able to afford a pair...
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  9. #39
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default

    Oh you cynic!

    That couldn't possibly be true...........

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  10. #40
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,779
    I'm Martin.

    Default

    They are ruinously expensive though. I mean you would think a budget of five grand would be enough to buy a pretty good system but even if you bought the cheapest pair they do it doesn't leave much for amp and source. My experience with Harbs is very limited I will confess. Heard the Super SHL 5 at Scalford one time and that's it.

    I'd like to get a go on some of the big ones at some point. Small speakers don't do much for me regardless of how good they might be.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

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