Dynamic range of vinyl recordings

[Pigmy Pony]

Firstly, Martin, don't tell me that anything I've heard and reported, or the comparisons I've made, in reference to any subject, is "invalid", or we're liable to fall out in a major way, especially in this instance as you don't know for sure exactly what I've compared.

Everything we hear in audio is valid; it's only the context in which it's applied that could be argued as invalid. However, without categorical proof that's the case, which certainly hasn't been supplied in reference to the discussion here, no-one has the right to completely dismiss someone else's findings, which indirectly is what you're doing.

It's not only the differences with recordings on Tidal I can hear, but when streaming 24-bit files, contained on my NAS drives, of the *same* (and I mean SAME - same mastering, same everything else) albums I have on CD, of which i have compared 100s of examples, and more often than not, the 24-bit files sound superior (more open, detailed and dynamic).

Now I can't explain exactly what's happening, but I'm definitely not imagining it, and it would certainly help the discussion if you were less dismissive and a little more open-minded to possibilities that fall outside of your comfort zone for consideration.

Perhaps what's happening is that with 24-bit, there's a knock-on effect, which manifests itself lower down the frequency range, within audibility, and influences what is heard overall from the recording, somewhat like the effect gained by installing super-tweeters?

Lots of people who've installed super-tweeters, and used them with their existing speakers, have reported significant sonic improvements, in the way I've described with hi-res over CD, even though the tweeters are operating outside of the bounds of human audibility, and you can still hear that effect on a pair of 40-year old speakers.

On a wider note, IMO, it would also help greatly (and give more weight to your arguments here) if you obtained more practical experience in this area, by embracing file-based audio, and in the context of your system, listened to some of the recordings in question and compared them with the same on CD, rather than treating the details of technical research elsewhere as Gospel, and dismissing the valid findings of others, simply because they appear to fly in the face of that.

And since you mentioned validity, in my book, opinions on audio formed from *practical experience*, such as I've outlined above, will always be more valid than those learned from books or Internet research, and it is those opinions I will always give credence to and listen to the most.

I'll watch the video when I get a chance later.

Marco.

I hate it when mum and dad are fighting

I've been following this thread (with difficulty) for some time now, and paragraphs 5/6 of the above make the most sense to me - can it not be this simple?

My belief is that it comes down to our perception at the end of the day, regardless of what is scientifically provable - If you shell out on something and perceive an improvement, then that improvement is real and money well spent. If you hear no improvement then regardless of whatever anyone in a science coat says, you've wasted your money! At the end of the day the world itself only exists because we perceive it to.

[NRG]

And to finish an accessible lecture from a record producer who has made over 100 hi rez recordings (AIX Records). https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...tter.11/page-3


Note he points out that if you didn't record hirez and digital all the way from the microphones onward, it isn't and can never be 'hi rez' regardless. You think you've been listening to the hi rez version of Fleetwood Mac 'Rumours'? No you haven't.

An excellent video thanks for linking to it. It's worth the effort to watch it all the way through, note: he's mainly attacking the use of HiRes as a marketing term when the material clearly comes from a CD quality or less(!) source. There's a fair bit of the usual 'look how good I'am' in the presentation but he makes some really valid points and rips into Pono heavily...

[struth]

Certainly heard differences using supertweeters with my single telefunkens. Wasnt sure i liked it so took them off again tho.

[Jimbo]

The only difference I found Marco when listening to 24bit vs 16bit recordings was that although I could identify differences I could not always tell which was which and blind guessing I often chose plain vanilla 16bit over 24bit. All listening was done with FBA so CD rips, no CD in the house. Maybe your experience was different as you were using CD and 24bit files?

One aspect I do find with hi res material is the sense of air around instruments, vocals were often not too different?

[struth]

The only difference I found Marco when listening to 24bit vs 16bit recordings was that although I could identify differences I could not always tell which was which and blind guessing I often chose plain vanilla 16bit over 24bit. All listening was done with FBA so CD rips, no CD in the house. Maybe your experience was different as you were using CD and 24bit files?

One aspect I do find with hi res material is the sense of air around instruments, vocals were often not too different?

shows there were differences tho. not just the same. i agree some 16/44 sound better; can only think the mastering is done well enough to make upscaling etc a reduction again.

[Marco]

I hate it when mum and dad are fighting

Lol - it's a merely a (passionate) slightly heated debate, the type of which Martin and I often have on these subjects, not a fight. He has strong views and conviction in his opinions, and so do I, but we're all big boys here, so there's no need for anyone to fall out.

I've been following this thread (with difficulty) for some time now, and paragraphs 5/6 of the above make the most sense to me - can it not be this simple?

My belief is that it comes down to our perception at the end of the day, regardless of what is scientifically provable - If you shell out on something and perceive an improvement, then that improvement is real and money well spent. If you hear no improvement then regardless of whatever anyone in a science coat says, you've wasted your money! At the end of the day the world itself only exists because we perceive it to.

In terms of the bit in bold, I'd suggest that it's at least a possibility. I know what I'm hearing though, so I don't give a tinker's cuss what anyone in a science coat says, if I have grounds to believe there is an agenda behind it, but that's just a general point, not in relation to the stated video, which I haven't watched yet.

We're in complete agreement with the rest, which is why I simply won't have anyone's valid perceptions/experiences here dismissed as invalid/imagined or whatever, no matter how that message has been wrapped up, as the premise I've stated above is fundamental, not only to my own views on audio, but also the AoS ethos; indeed it forms its very core, and all members here must respect that.

Marco.

[Clive]

I'd certainly agree that reading up on the science and then gaining personal experience to reach your own conclusions is sensible. The gaining of personal experience being the more important factor...

[Jimbo]

Nice to have a civilised discussion on this subject without being jeered at or closed down. We can all learn something on here as I am sure none of us know everything apart from what our own ears tell us. I get a bit frustrated by people who just want to point score. There are decent and cordial ways of discussing this subject which I thought was the ethos of AOS?

[Marco]

Hi Jim,

The only difference I found Marco when listening to 24bit vs 16bit recordings was that although I could identify differences I could not always tell which was which and blind guessing I often chose plain vanilla 16bit over 24bit. All listening was done with FBA so CD rips, no CD in the house. Maybe your experience was different as you were using CD and 24bit files?

If you didn't know exactly what you were comparing, then as Martin says, the 16-bit version might've been preferable because of better mastering. These sorts of comparisons are only valid if, aside from the hi-res factor, you're comparing like for like, which is what I've done on numerous occasions, using recordings I have on both computer files and CD or vinyl.

I've got around 1TB worth of stored hi-res music files, which I can access at the touch of a button, and compare instantly with the CD version of the same, using the same test system, so any significant sonic differences become immediately apparent.

That doesn't always happen, but when it does, the hi-res version invariably sounds superior, in the way I've described, almost as if the recording has more 'headroom', dynamically, which as you say, increases the sense of air and space around instruments. I can only report what I hear in that respect (and have heard since I embraced FBA), so that's what I've done

Marco.

[AJSki2fly]

We're in complete agreement with the rest, which is why I simply won't have anyone's valid perceptions/experiences here dismissed as invalid/imagined or whatever, no matter how that message has been wrapped up, as the premise I've stated above is fundamental, not only to my own views on audio, but also the AoS ethos; indeed it forms its very core, and all members here must respect that.

There has been much said on this thread and on the ground box one around "perceived' aural quality and what is real and what is not. In my experience only you as an individual can judge that for yourself, after all we each have a pair of ears and brain and by human definition they will not be the same, possibly similar but they will be slightly different. So by that fact alone it is very likely our listening experience and how we perceive music individually will be different to anybody else. So IMO it is best to listen and make your own judgment on what you like to hear and what you don't.

Marco.

I am in complete agreement, let your own ears be the judge of what is right and wrong with what you listen to, what sound good to one may well not to another, we have different ears and brains , and remember its about enjoying the music.