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Thread: Cheap upgrade for michell gyro

  1. #581
    Join Date: Oct 2008

    Location: Glasgowshire

    Posts: 8,452
    I'm Gary.

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    Werner really knows his stuff, over on VinylEngine he really helped me when I was getting my Gorbe deck together.

    Quote Originally Posted by gwernaffield View Post
    well it does not make any difference , the turntables are not built to that high standard , the bearing is only point loaded, about a pin points worth , sitting on a surface that should be very smooth but is a rough as sand paper , and the cone it sits into is not a very good finish either ,
    the ball could be 20microns out of shape you just would not see it or hear in , the bearing is located by the shaft and not the ball , i hope this helps
    i have talked to Michell over the cone part , not sure if they have done anything about it the ball cannot sit properly due to the roughly machined cone , if my facts have been wrong in the past my apology, but it makes no difference , we stopped using Delrn and torlon , a while ago, torlon is very hard and can micro crack , Delrin was used and still can be used in the pylons, i use a aluminoxide ball, and not the black ball as i was told by Werner that the Black Ball can also crack ,
    as all the bearing balls are made to different standards it is up to the user to check , i don't supply parts, but will help if possible,
    pete
    Enjoying Hifi 'n stuff.

  2. #582
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: north wales

    Posts: 619
    I'm peter.

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    yes werner is the boss when it comes to michell, he has his own psu and different motor , he was a good friend to J A MICHELL, knew factory well, he has helped ,,with pointing me in the wright direction on somethings,i did not know the chassis could twist ,until werner mentioned it , when talking about Gert's Mods , so he is the real Michell Man ,

  3. #583
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: London, Canada

    Posts: 188
    I'm Blake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phonomac View Post
    Still haven't seen anything that offers me a 1 micron tolerance plastic ball of any kind - best they can do is 5 microns
    Not plastic but ceramic. Grade 3 Silicon Nitride will get you there. Surface finish is .003 microns and sphericity is .08 microns.

    Is it audible in a Gyrodec? Very. I've been running Grade 3 Si3N4 balls in my Gyrodec for more than 3 years now. I've done one oil change in that
    time period and just changed to a new ball with the oil change as the balls are ridiculously inexpensive. Under $5 a ball from Boca Bearings.

    One of the biggest bang for buck improvements you will make to a Gyro or Orbe.

  4. #584
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: north wales

    Posts: 619
    I'm peter.

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    it does not matter how smooth the bearing ball or how round , until Michell sort the main problem , the smoothness of the components that make up the bearing it self , with the top of the bearing looking as thought it was done on a hand grinder and not a mirror finish , and the cone has the same problem , if you can feel the top of the bearing shaft with you finger it is too rough , the bering having to bed in which takes a long long long time, the ball sitting in the cone that is like tram line finish cannot sit properly ,

  5. #585
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: London, Canada

    Posts: 188
    I'm Blake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwernaffield View Post
    it does not matter how smooth the bearing ball or how round , until Michell sort the main problem , the smoothness of the components that make up the bearing it self , with the top of the bearing looking as thought it was done on a hand grinder and not a mirror finish , and the cone has the same problem , if you can feel the top of the bearing shaft with you finger it is too rough , the bering having to bed in which takes a long long long time, the ball sitting in the cone that is like tram line finish cannot sit properly ,
    Nothing is perfect Pete, but it does make sense to me to put in the roundest possible ball to ensure that any platter "rocking" would be reduced in the cone area as much as possible, as well as one that could also reduce friction & further vibration at the top of the bearing shaft, regardless of any limitations in the stock bearing. Or, as they say, two wrongs don't make a right.

    I've been using silicon nitride balls now for more than 3 years with excellent results. It makes no sense to me that they should be more prone to cracking than any of the other non-steel balls-there's a reasonably strong argument that they should be less so. Personally, I feel that
    the purported problems with micro-cracking are a bit of an urban legend going back to when John Michell was alive and ball bearing technology was
    a bit more primitive and there may have been some problems. But that was a long time ago.

    I believe a number of very high end table manufacturers are also currently using silicon nitride balls in their bearings and can't see them doing so
    if there were serious problems with the balls.

    In any event, it is cheap to simply pop in a new ball every time you do any oil change, which I think is a good thing every few years.

    I could never go back to a steel ball, any more than I could never go back to the springs now either

    The silicon nitride ball will, in my experience, sound significantly better than the steel ball right out of the box and it will take probably 30-45 days
    to bed in (possibly less with a lot of use), at which point it will be even better. Anecdotally, I felt that the last time I did an oil change and changed the ball there was very little change in the sound of my table. Prior to that whenever I rotated a steel ball or changed it I felt that the new ball had to bed
    in entirely all over again and that the sound from the table was a bit edgy/strident for a few weeks.

    Proof is in the listening as they say and it's $5 and easily and instantly reversible.

  6. #586
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: north wales

    Posts: 619
    I'm peter.

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    hi Blake i do get your point , how ever until michell sort out the bearing you will always have more noise in the bearing that is necessary , the surface finish is very , poor ,to the top of the being , where it sits in the cone is also that rough the ball does not sit properly , due to the ridges left after the use of what looks like a center drill, to get the ball to fit properly, it will either need to be lapped into the cone or the cone needs to be ground properly , i did the latter made the ball fit the cone , but only the bare minimum contact is needed, in my opinion this helps stop wobble, how ever i have not real proof only what i hear , also the ball NEVER rotates like a normal bearing ball, the pressure holds it into a fixed position , and rotates on a pin point contact only , the ball could be 20microns out of shape it would not make any difference at all, with the pinpoint contact may be half a micron out of round and then lapping it self into the tram line top of the bearing ,

    may be if the top had been finished the same as the shaft it would be even less wobble and more central ,, with less rumble , as the ball is forced over the poor finish ,

  7. #587
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: north wales

    Posts: 619
    I'm peter.

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    Hi all if you are tempted to buy a Michell Odyssey 2004 turntable , it should have a badge and also numbered , the chassis has a hidden number , which must correspond with the badge , or paper work , their was only 100 of these turntables made,
    they are easy to copy , but it must have the chassis number engraved in a certain place , as proof it is a real Odyssey

  8. #588
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: north wales

    Posts: 619
    I'm peter.

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    more experiments using the synthetic silicone grease with ptfe , and zx1 with oil, this seems to work very well, it stops the bearing from being dry on startup ,i also packed the rear of the bearing ball to help reduce any noise off the ball it self ,
    thank you to Blakep for the bearing ball i have not tried it yet , as soon as i do i will send you a PM , it has taken a couple of weeks to get used to the platter , now i have better high notes, the bass is faster and controlled,( plenty off bass with out bass buzz)
    i just wish i had the extra weights fitted, how ever they may have caused damaged to the bearing , with the extra weight , no plans now to do anything else at this moment except to enjoy the music ,
    pete

  9. #589
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: north wales

    Posts: 619
    I'm peter.

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    I have kept the grease oil mix , it was thought off after seeing that project use a grease oil for their inverted bearings, that is a bit thicker , as the michell bearing acts like a pump,it seemed the best thing to try , so i mixed my own , the deck went faster , now if you slightly push on the platter it will move very very easily,

  10. #590
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: north wales

    Posts: 619
    I'm peter.

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    Hi This problem keeps happening the position of the acrylic screw holes which hold the pylons and should be central to the chassis holes , or you will have to remove the bush out of the center of the pylon , this only allows for the pylon position to be out by 1mm , so if you measure the triangle it should be equal ,
    i have one that is way out with 302 302 300, a special set of bases have to be made to get the pylons to work , all because Michel never centralized the pylon posts in the first place which would mean the spring suspension would have to Bend to work but out of spec , you wound never get the Michell bounce correct as one spring would be pulling against the other 2 , which i then have to get truepoint to remake the bases so the pylons work , were it is a manufacturing error by Michell the other way is to re drill the hole in the base , or the spider , using the chassis to get the position and the base ,
    place all the bases into the chassis with out the orings and on the adjuster on 2 , the other is the one that is out mark the center of that hole and drill the acrylic to fit

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