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Thread: Cheap upgrade for michell gyro

  1. #371
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: North East

    Posts: 4,852
    I'm Alan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Allen View Post
    Picking up on what Pete has mentioned regarding the ‘O’ Rings, I raised this topic with him as a concern for users in the medium/longer term of ownership. What users need to be aware of is the Rings are being deployed to perform a function they were not designed for, the Rings typically are a seal for fluid and air, and when installed sit in a groove to prevent the Ring from moving, but more importantly to control the deformation of the Ring cross section to ensure the Ring ‘seals’ over a reasonable length of time.

    Stating the obvious, all Rings will fail at some point; however, users should understand the failure mode process to avoid potential damage to their turntable.

    All Rings degrade from day 1 of usage, what drives the degradation is the environment they are working in i.e. highly corrosive fluid, temperature, etc. Within a relatively short space of time, the Rings will ‘set’ but still function (seal) which is why the groove housing the Ring is so important.

    The Pylon Rings will also ‘set’ but will still function, however, the next stage of Ring degradation is to go brittle/hard and then snap, and that is the concern I have, how long will it be before the Rings reach the point when failure is imminent?

    I notice in some of the earlier posts that some owners preferred to leave the suspension covers off as they liked the ‘industrial’ element of the design, personally, I would encourage owners to leave the covers on, the reason being dust, and UV will accelerate Ring degradation.

    I am not criticising Pete’s design (I purchased a set for myself) but merely wish to make owners aware that maintenance/servicing is required on a regular basis to prevent a disaster. I would suggest that every 3 months (minimum) compliance of the Rings are checked, if they have gone hard, replacement of all the Rings should be done ASAP, as the rotational torque (wow and flutter) coupled with the mass of the sub-chassis will likely snap the Rings in the horizontal plane!!!

    I have suggested to Pete that it may be worth Blue Point conducting some trials with higher spec Rings to minimise the risk of a failure, IMHO, the increased costs of higher specification Rings would be a price worth paying, aerospace quality Rings is what I would be considering as an alternative.

    Finally, Pete’s design is not flawed, SME have exactly the same problem with their turntables, which is probably why they use a very expensive Ring material for their ‘pylon’ which I believe is reinforced through the centre of the Ring with fibre.

    I hope this helps?
    A good post Steve...I have been testing these pylons for a long time now, watching in particular the o-rings with vigilance, as this is the only, albeit a very small one, weak point, where the Pylons are concerned. The rings are holding very well, retaining their elasticity. Initially over the first few weeks, I had to adjust them as the chassis did sink a little due to a small amount of stretching, as the o-rings settled, but beyond this point there hasn't been any problems. I will of course keep my eye on them for the inevitable, which you have mentioned. There are 6 o-rings per pylon however and find it extremely unlikely, that all six are going to fail at once, which could be considered an early warning system. I like the idea of the o-rings with the inner core being fibre, stating the obvious, They are the safety net so to speak, in the event of the rubber failing..
    'ANSOM IN THE SUMMER..'ORIBBLE IN THE WINTER

    Cambridge Audio CXN, Seagate nas drive, Michell Gyrodec SE, SME309, Denon DL103, Primare R32, Sugden Headmaster headphone/pre-amp, Class D power amp, Roksan Darius speakers, REL Storm III, Target R4 speaker stands, Atacama Equinox.

  2. #372
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: wales

    Posts: 423
    I'm peter.

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    HI all as I said I had to draw a line on the o-rings due to cost I use NBR , it was to make them accessible to users where the O-rings can be cheap enough to replace,, SME are made in house ,the cost of which is between £8 -9 ,when I looked the other day ,, Sme using a damper,,, I do not no anything else, only what I have read on the Internet ,I have never seen how they are attached, or want to take it any further ,, it is a turntable I just have to dream about ,,

    The 6 O rings came about after using 3 , then 4 and then 6 , the amount is limited by the size of the Nut,, Users wanting to put the cover back onto them,, all have a bearing on how many can be used ,slots or hole's you would need to make the top nut bigger , but then you are limited to the way the base fits ,, the 6 making them stable and if one or 2 break nothing will happen ,

    i did try thicker o-rings but the deck was very solid also if they are thicker than 3 mm the base may be come unstable, and the same aging process, Michell Recommend the springs be changed on a service ,

    I will try and find the cost effective way to upgrade the o-rings with a fiber core, some things you just cannot get in the UK ,, if you know of a source that I can buy them from at a reasonable price , please let me know,,
    I did try silicone o-rings but the stretch was too great , and they snap easy , one thing you could try is to place a sorbothane washer were the felt one sits, this would take a bit of pressure as well as any stray frequencies /noise off the bottom of the adjuster ,
    possibly change to VITON o rings, but will double check the cost , in the morning , I have left the choice upto the user ,due to the cost involved, and availability in the country of use

    NBR It provides a good balance of desirable working properties including low compression set, high tensile strength, and high abrasion resistance.Key Use(s):

    Oil resistant applications of all types Low temperature military uses. Off-road equipment. Automotive, marine, aircraft fuel systems. Can be compounded for FDA applications.
    But every thing deteriorates over time regardless of what it is made off , even springs will bend out of spec , the o-rings are just a service item the same as the oil and the springs,

    Thank you Steve and Alan ,

    all the very best pete
    Last edited by gwernaffield; 15-05-2019 at 19:52.

  3. #373
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Sheffield - UK

    Posts: 6,384
    I'm Mark.

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    If the O-rings are neoprene they will degrade - if left in the light they will degrade quickly and become brittle and perish (this could take weeks to a few months), if in the dark it will take more time. If the rings are made from silicone they will largely avoid this problem but will have entirely different durometric qualities.

    100% Analogue

  4. #374
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: Southall, West London

    Posts: 39,982
    I'm Geoff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YNWaN View Post
    If the O-rings are neoprene they will degrade - if left in the light they will degrade quickly and become brittle and perish (this could take weeks to a few months), if in the dark it will take more time. If the rings are made from silicone they will largely avoid this problem but will have entirely different durometric qualities.
    I made neoprene 'O' ring suspension for one of my decks years ago. They actually lasted a year or two. Cheap and easy to replace though.
    "when common sense, logic and plausibility are excluded. All that remain are foolishness and lies"

  5. #375
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: wales

    Posts: 423
    I'm peter.

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    The o-rings are NBR , Acrylonitrile-butadiene rubber (nitrile) but any help in this is always welcome, which will help other users,

  6. #376
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: Southall, West London

    Posts: 39,982
    I'm Geoff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwernaffield View Post
    The o-rings are NBR , Acrylonitrile-butadiene rubber (nitrile) but any help in this is always welcome, which will help other users,
    Could be. It was over twenty years ago and I can't recall.
    "when common sense, logic and plausibility are excluded. All that remain are foolishness and lies"

  7. #377
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: wales

    Posts: 423
    I'm peter.

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    there are several designs out there All use different ways, Of getting the deck to work , the Spring stopper leaves the spring and base in place, one which is a very simple way of stopping the chassis from moving ,,,
    the design I have done stops the twist off the chassis , one which I don't understand how this affects the sound in the first place,,, other than the reduction in wow and flutter , the deck now having a sold lateral point , I assume to leave the belt tight ,, out of all of this the o-rings have been the least problem ,
    with the base and the holes sizes being different sizes,, with the cavite the O rings are a service part , will need changing , no one has forced any one to try or buy them,,, they are just in my opinion better than the oem springs,, and after 3 years of using

    them I am happy,, to say that , not everything I have done has been placed on cheap up grades for the michell gyro ,,,thank you for the help and input it is always welcomed,

    pete
    Last edited by gwernaffield; 15-05-2019 at 21:14.

  8. #378
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: North East

    Posts: 4,852
    I'm Alan.

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    That's it exactly Peter...I believe it has already been a well established fact, that the o-rings are service items and at some point...the o-rings will need replaced...of course they will. all materials degrade over time, especially if they are carrying any sort of weight or are under some sort of stress...I haven't changed the o-rings on my deck as yet and don't expect to, for quite some time and the cost of replacements is minimal. A nice new, fresh set of rings, a few small adjustments and Bob's your uncle...I don't see any problem..the huge improvements to my deck outweigh the little cost of a new set of o-rings...As for them failing, there is six on each pylon and again I will point out, what are the chances of six o-rings per pylon, all failing together....next to nil...I've tried all kinds of materials for the o-rings, even trying our lasses hair bobbles..the NBR are by far the best option, for the stability, the damping factors and the shock absorbig effect...OK NBR rings with the fibre cor, is an interesting concept, but the cost is too high
    'ANSOM IN THE SUMMER..'ORIBBLE IN THE WINTER

    Cambridge Audio CXN, Seagate nas drive, Michell Gyrodec SE, SME309, Denon DL103, Primare R32, Sugden Headmaster headphone/pre-amp, Class D power amp, Roksan Darius speakers, REL Storm III, Target R4 speaker stands, Atacama Equinox.

  9. #379
    Join Date: Mar 2019

    Location: Bristol, UK

    Posts: 9
    I'm Steve.

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    Alan,
    I totally agree with your comments, especially the fact that the NBR Rings are not going to fail anytime soon, and Yes, replacement is cheap and simple, my main concern, was that some owners may not appreciate there is a maintenance regime to be carried out on a reasonably regular basis, to ensure the worst case scenario does not occur.

    Whilst it is highly unlikely all 6 Rings will fail at the same time, if one should fail, the remaining Rings will fail sequentially very quickly, due to the stress loads being transferred, hence my comment about replacement of the entire sets. As you quite rightly mention the price of the Rings is very low, and is not an issue, for me it is about being vigilant.

    Interesting that you have used Rings of different materials, I would imagine that you would get slightly different sonic results, that’s one of the things I like about Pete’s design, is that if you were so inclined, you could introduce tweaks at very low risks/costs i.e. different materials, different lengths, and cross section, all of which would alter the sonic characteristics to an owners preference.

    I had a browse through numerous Ring manufacturers yesterday, and as you are probably aware, there are many suppliers out there (particularly in the USA) who have all manner of ‘O’ Rings with good well documented supporting information to assist making a selection, at the end of the day though, you pay your money and make your choice, I do feel it would enhance the design pedigree, if Pete/Blue Point did some trials with different Rings to understand the sonic benefits, and then offer the Rings as an up-grade path/option to potential customers. Upgrade options is good for business!!!

  10. #380
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: wales

    Posts: 423
    I'm peter.

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    hi Steve I got as far as I could afford to do the o-rings, with viton , NBR , Silicone ,, the silicone work well , but when they stretch any hint of a cut they just snap , the viton were just too expensive, the NBR just seem to fit the bill at this moment ,
    how ever I have spoken to True Point , about them and have a meeting tomorrow,, with him ,,as they are manufactures for different industries including industry ,

    as for the sonic results the NBR are the best out of the 3 compounds I used, also not as bouncy as the silicone, which are more like an elastic band,, the decision was to use the NBR and in the Future research they may be changed, or offered as an upgrade,,
    but the words value for money still has to count ,, some people require a discount , but as they are down to the very last penny now, with no return to keep people happy , I just cannot see any one paying £180 -£200 just for o-rings, it would make the product not viable,,, total cost of £400 for the set mostly of O rings,,
    the best of both cannot be done,, with out an effect on price, as this is called cheap upgrades ( affordable upgrades ) for michell gyro,,
    I am going to look into getting a purpose built o-ring , today ,,,
    depending on the cost ,, again, the alternative to this suspension that I do is the spring stopper , but even that cannot be made to one size fits all ,, due to the differing sizes of the holes,, you are then back to the competitors who either use o-rings or string,,ALL will do exactly the same in time,,,,
    SME I cannot comment on them as I have never owned or heard a SME table to comment,, I do not no their time frame to change the o-rings they manufacture,,, the cost of which is expensive to me,,

    The cost of the whole Pete's Pylons is less than the cost SME O-rings,, in total ,
    the o-ring being easily obtainable any where in the world,,,, no need for a main dealer ,, as their is not one,, just a manufacturer and retailer,,, and eBay ,, There is no Foo with the pylons they do what they do,, replace the OEM springs with an after market product that no one has to buy ,, or is forced to buy ,In my opinion ,, they are far better than the OEM springs ,, that is all,, so far the opinions are the same around the world , from New Zealand to Canada and USA ,, all are happy , with only one set returned from England with the comment they don't make the speakers disappear ,,,they were scrapped due to the custom size a rework is impossible,, and the chance of getting an other chassis the same size is impossible to guess,,

    ATB
    Pete

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