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Thread: Cheap upgrade for michell gyro

  1. #371
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Sheffield - UK

    Posts: 6,560
    I'm Mark.

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    If the O-rings are neoprene they will degrade - if left in the light they will degrade quickly and become brittle and perish (this could take weeks to a few months), if in the dark it will take more time. If the rings are made from silicone they will largely avoid this problem but will have entirely different durometric qualities.

    100% Analogue

  2. #372
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: Southall, West London

    Posts: 40,828
    I'm Geoff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YNWaN View Post
    If the O-rings are neoprene they will degrade - if left in the light they will degrade quickly and become brittle and perish (this could take weeks to a few months), if in the dark it will take more time. If the rings are made from silicone they will largely avoid this problem but will have entirely different durometric qualities.
    I made neoprene 'O' ring suspension for one of my decks years ago. They actually lasted a year or two. Cheap and easy to replace though.
    "when common sense, logic and plausibility are excluded. All that remain are foolishness and lies"

  3. #373
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: london

    Posts: 449
    I'm bob.

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    The o-rings are NBR , Acrylonitrile-butadiene rubber (nitrile) but any help in this is always welcome, which will help other users,

  4. #374
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: Southall, West London

    Posts: 40,828
    I'm Geoff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwernaffield View Post
    The o-rings are NBR , Acrylonitrile-butadiene rubber (nitrile) but any help in this is always welcome, which will help other users,
    Could be. It was over twenty years ago and I can't recall.
    "when common sense, logic and plausibility are excluded. All that remain are foolishness and lies"

  5. #375
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: london

    Posts: 449
    I'm bob.

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    there are several designs out there All use different ways, Of getting the deck to work , the Spring stopper leaves the spring and base in place, one which is a very simple way of stopping the chassis from moving ,,,
    the design I have done stops the twist off the chassis , one which I don't understand how this affects the sound in the first place,,, other than the reduction in wow and flutter , the deck now having a sold lateral point , I assume to leave the belt tight ,, out of all of this the o-rings have been the least problem ,
    with the base and the holes sizes being different sizes,, with the cavite the O rings are a service part , will need changing , no one has forced any one to try or buy them,,, they are just in my opinion better than the oem springs,, and after 3 years of using

    them I am happy,, to say that , not everything I have done has been placed on cheap up grades for the michell gyro ,,,thank you for the help and input it is always welcomed,

    pete
    Last edited by gwernaffield; 15-05-2019 at 21:14.

  6. #376
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: North East

    Posts: 5,619
    I'm Alan.

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    That's it exactly Peter...I believe it has already been a well established fact, that the o-rings are service items and at some point...the o-rings will need replaced...of course they will. all materials degrade over time, especially if they are carrying any sort of weight or are under some sort of stress...I haven't changed the o-rings on my deck as yet and don't expect to, for quite some time and the cost of replacements is minimal. A nice new, fresh set of rings, a few small adjustments and Bob's your uncle...I don't see any problem..the huge improvements to my deck outweigh the little cost of a new set of o-rings...As for them failing, there is six on each pylon and again I will point out, what are the chances of six o-rings per pylon, all failing together....next to nil...I've tried all kinds of materials for the o-rings, even trying our lasses hair bobbles..the NBR are by far the best option, for the stability, the damping factors and the shock absorbig effect...OK NBR rings with the fibre cor, is an interesting concept, but the cost is too high
    'ANSOM IN THE SUMMER..'ORIBBLE IN THE WINTER

    Cambridge Audio CXN, Seagate nas drive, Michell Gyrodec SE, SME309, Denon DL103, Primare R32, Sugden Headmaster headphone/pre-amp, Class AB VMP dual mono bullet power amp, Roksan Darius speakers, REL Storm III, Target R4 speaker stands, Atacama Equinox.

  7. #377
    Join Date: Mar 2019

    Location: Bristol, UK

    Posts: 11
    I'm Steve.

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    Alan,
    I totally agree with your comments, especially the fact that the NBR Rings are not going to fail anytime soon, and Yes, replacement is cheap and simple, my main concern, was that some owners may not appreciate there is a maintenance regime to be carried out on a reasonably regular basis, to ensure the worst case scenario does not occur.

    Whilst it is highly unlikely all 6 Rings will fail at the same time, if one should fail, the remaining Rings will fail sequentially very quickly, due to the stress loads being transferred, hence my comment about replacement of the entire sets. As you quite rightly mention the price of the Rings is very low, and is not an issue, for me it is about being vigilant.

    Interesting that you have used Rings of different materials, I would imagine that you would get slightly different sonic results, that’s one of the things I like about Pete’s design, is that if you were so inclined, you could introduce tweaks at very low risks/costs i.e. different materials, different lengths, and cross section, all of which would alter the sonic characteristics to an owners preference.

    I had a browse through numerous Ring manufacturers yesterday, and as you are probably aware, there are many suppliers out there (particularly in the USA) who have all manner of ‘O’ Rings with good well documented supporting information to assist making a selection, at the end of the day though, you pay your money and make your choice, I do feel it would enhance the design pedigree, if Pete/Blue Point did some trials with different Rings to understand the sonic benefits, and then offer the Rings as an up-grade path/option to potential customers. Upgrade options is good for business!!!

  8. #378
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: london

    Posts: 449
    I'm bob.

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    hi Steve I got as far as I could afford to do the o-rings, with viton , NBR , Silicone ,, the silicone work well , but when they stretch any hint of a cut they just snap , the viton were just too expensive, the NBR just seem to fit the bill at this moment ,
    how ever I have spoken to True Point , about them and have a meeting tomorrow,, with him ,,as they are manufactures for different industries including industry ,

    as for the sonic results the NBR are the best out of the 3 compounds I used, also not as bouncy as the silicone, which are more like an elastic band,, the decision was to use the NBR and in the Future research they may be changed, or offered as an upgrade,,
    but the words value for money still has to count ,, some people require a discount , but as they are down to the very last penny now, with no return to keep people happy , I just cannot see any one paying 180 -200 just for o-rings, it would make the product not viable,,, total cost of 400 for the set mostly of O rings,,
    the best of both cannot be done,, with out an effect on price, as this is called cheap upgrades ( affordable upgrades ) for michell gyro,,
    I am going to look into getting a purpose built o-ring , today ,,,
    depending on the cost ,, again, the alternative to this suspension that I do is the spring stopper , but even that cannot be made to one size fits all ,, due to the differing sizes of the holes,, you are then back to the competitors who either use o-rings or string,,ALL will do exactly the same in time,,,,
    SME I cannot comment on them as I have never owned or heard a SME table to comment,, I do not no their time frame to change the o-rings they manufacture,,, the cost of which is expensive to me,,

    The cost of the whole Pete's Pylons is less than the cost SME O-rings,, in total ,
    the o-ring being easily obtainable any where in the world,,,, no need for a main dealer ,, as their is not one,, just a manufacturer and retailer,,, and eBay ,, There is no Foo with the pylons they do what they do,, replace the OEM springs with an after market product that no one has to buy ,, or is forced to buy ,In my opinion ,, they are far better than the OEM springs ,, that is all,, so far the opinions are the same around the world , from New Zealand to Canada and USA ,, all are happy , with only one set returned from England with the comment they don't make the speakers disappear ,,,they were scrapped due to the custom size a rework is impossible,, and the chance of getting an other chassis the same size is impossible to guess,,

    ATB
    Pete

  9. #379
    Join Date: Mar 2019

    Location: Bristol, UK

    Posts: 11
    I'm Steve.

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    Hi Pete,

    Totally agree with your logic and ethics about ‘value for money’ and awareness of supply versus demand, what will the customer pay!!!

    I don’t think for 1 minute there is any doubt about the pylons ‘value for money’ – period.

    You mention VITON ‘O’ Rings, I was looking at those myself the other day, hence I am somewhat confused with your pricing structure, as the VITON Rings are (as expected) more expensive then NBR but 200 more, surely some mistake. Anyway, I had a look just now on the Net at a company called Eastern Seals; they are a UK based supplier their address is easternseals.co.uk, I notice they were selling genuine Du-Pont VITON V75 Rings (27,6mm x 2,4mm) for 0.2068 for batches <100. Therefore 18 x 0.2068 = 3.7224, which is a far cry from the >200 you mentioned, obviously with larger batch orders the price reduces.

    I just wonder if perhaps you mis-interpreted the prices being quoted.

    They do sell some very expensive Rings at approx 8 each, but they are for encapsulated Rings which are not suitable anyway.

    I hope this helps?

    Very best regards,

    Steve

  10. #380
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: london

    Posts: 449
    I'm bob.

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    yes I talked to Eastern seals, they have said the NBR will be fine but if they are in direct sunlight UV would play apart and to use EDPM which I have just ordered off them,, I also am aware of the problems of supply for different O rings, , the 200 O rings from SME ,, I am not sure how many they use is it around 8 per tower at 8 -9 each ,, unless I have misread the advert I just never followed that up ,,that is were the 200 came from not to mislead any one,
    https://www.analogueseduction.net/sm...sion-band.html
    the sme 20/2 taking 32 rings in 4 towers,

    The Viton ones would not be suitable due to the stretch needed,, , ,, if the answer was simple every one would be doing them , with the design of the Michell having so many different size holes,,, with out a very costly solution one that would need Einstein to install them,,, they are what they are just a spring replacement , one which I will always help with, in my opinion are far better than the springs, , the O rings have been tested over 3 years, if problems have been brought to my attention I will always look again
    but as I am not selling them they are bought through True Point engineering and true point audio, I have talked to them and will be calling in the morning as well,, also if you would like Steve I will send you some EDPM ones as soon as they are available , I have just ordered them off Eastern but have to wait for the pro former to arrive,,and then pay an wait again ,
    ATB
    pete
    Last edited by gwernaffield; 16-05-2019 at 15:01.

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