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Thread: My "REAL SOUND" experiment.

  1. #141
    Join Date: Nov 2010

    Location: Yorkshire

    Posts: 8,893
    I'm Andrew.

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    Part XVIII - Another casualty.


    Finally some listening and a brief appraisal of music from the REAL SOUND system. I honestly could not stomach a genre by genre comparison over
    many hours of listening with the M55E and the 2MB, I compared just one track that I have a very unhealthy imtimate knowledge, that's Rhyme of
    The Ancient Mariner by Iron Maiden. I tend to do a more indepth comparison of the 2MB against the Shure SC35C+SAS/B combo, this is a new cart and I think it will give the 2MB a slightly better run for it's money.


    Shure M55E + JICO SAS/B MM cartridge tracking at 1.4g
    Ortofon 2MB MM cartridge tracking at 1.7g


    Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner - Iron Maiden - Original pressing.

    The M55E presented an anaemic sounding set of vocals. I'm used to hearing a certain amount of snarl in Dickinson's vocals, it was there just not
    as much as I'm used to. Vocally, Dickinson was central, but far away and recessed, usually you get him more intimate and a little more in your face. Bass was another problem, muted, punitive, lacking punch and power, just no authority. Nicko McBrain's drumming sounded reasonably well controlled but bass drum was lacking in presentation, cymbals sounded wishy-washy, a confused presentation which sadly was muted and recessed into the background. It's usually very easy to pick out each drum in his kit, Bass, snare, toms, cymbals, not so with the M55E. The M55E was unusually good with surface noise which is something the 2MB couldn't beat. The M55E was optimised with the EAR834 clone phonostage

    Let's strap the 2MB back into place.

    Less anaemia to vocals which whilst sounded centralised also sounded like him singing in a confined box. The 2MB managed a far more realistic
    protrayal of the vocals with powerful output and a well centralised vocal presentation, snarl was restored! The bass on the 2MB compared to the M55E is somthing else. It's probably better to described what the 2MB did because the M55E could not replicate it. Bass was very well controlled, well defined, there is a section where you are simply bathed in bass as it panned from left to right and back again, this extended out forwards of the speakers not quite touching me but definitely a weird 3D holographic feeling. The M55E got nowhere near!! One small section of the song in some rainfall, it was heard quite meekly like a drizzle with the M55e but it sounded like a down pour with the 2MB. Drums became a joy to listen with the ability to easily determine individual pieces of McBrain's kit. The big downside to the 2MB is surface noise. The "Black" range of carts excel on surface noise and this no matter how hard or carefully you set the "black" range of carts, even with the use of a test record and a Fozgo meter!!!


    I didn't think there was much more point leaving the M55E+JICO SAS/B strapped in place, 2MB restored. Sadly, the M55E has been vanquished and I now need to leave nostalgia behind. The M55E will always live in my stable of carts and I will always have a soft spot for the old thing but better carts exist (as we all knew).


    TBH it's a pretty one sided contest. The M55E is 50 year technology, suspension probably not as good as it could be. The M55E did come with a newly fitted JICO SAS/B stylus which did produce a very nice sound but it wasn't in the same league as the 2MB, this 2MB example is an 800 hour example, so probably as good as it's going to get an probably on it's way out in another 500-750 hours time, crumps! The speakers were the IMF Super compact II's which are excellent with all genre's of music, Jazz sounds amazing, heavy metal (well heavy), vocals intimate, instrumental and electronica, all played very well indeed. The IMF's are in no way the last thing in musical presentation but they are the best in the REAL SOUND system. I would probably think that the M55E and 2MB would sound even better through my ATC 50 active speakers but that's not the point, it's all about how they sound in the REAL SOUND system.
    SS
    CD Teac VRDS25X(Audiotuned) DAC Caiman SEG+15V PSU+Dorado DECK 1210 Mat Crystal Audio Mods MN Base/Bearing/Platter+Ebony armboard Feet Isonoe PSU Paul Hynes SR7EHD-27XL/DCSXL Ag DC lead/3 Stage Regs/Recap PCB+No Pitch/Strobe/Light ARM SME V(Kondo Ag Rewire&Tags) MC Cadenza Black FGS CABLES Arm Yannis SPD-4 IC Yannis 222 Litz+Ag bullets Power WAR PRE ATC SCA2 SPEAKERS ATC 50ASL STANDS Atacama PHONO Sugden Masterclass PA4 SUT Ortofon ST80SE POWER PSAudio P10

    VALVE
    PRE
    Croft Epoch(Modded) AMP Sondex S100 (Modded) SPEAKERS Tannoy 15"MG+RFC Warwick cabs+ Ref XO DECKS Garrard301/401 (Bastin) Mat Teunto Bearings 301/401(Bastin) Plinth Moldovan/Bastin Arms 3012(Ikeda Ag wired) SME V12 PSU Eagle+Tachometer MC Ag Meister v2/Royal N SPUs CABLES Arm Yannis 420.5 Litz+ SpeakerPC Tripple C+WBT-0681 Ag IC Oyaide FTVS-510 AgWBT 0110Ag Phonostage Paradise(4 Box Mega-Modded)

    REAL SOUND
    Heybrook TT2 (Isokinetic PSU) + Alphason HR100s + Shure SC35C (JICO B/SAS) + Radford SC25 Pre + EAR 834 (Modded Clone) + 300b Amp + Full Duelund cabling loom



  2. #142
    Join Date: May 2011

    Location: Glasgow

    Posts: 7,600
    I'm Brian.

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    Nice write up Andrew. The 2MB is excellent for the money ain't it ?
    Regards
    Brian

    Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment . (Rumi )


    Korus Computer Audio music server
    JustBoom DAC . HRT Musicstreamer 2
    Amplifier : Sony TA FB740R
    Speakers : Tannoy 637
    Interconnects : MS Audio / Klotz MC5000 .
    Speaker cables : Western Electric 16AG

  3. #143
    Join Date: May 2012

    Location: Toulouse, France

    Posts: 5,899
    I'm Kevin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian2957 View Post
    Nice write up Andrew. The 2MB is excellent for the money ain't it ?
    It used to be….
    Seems flipping expensive now.
    How much better is it than a 2M bronze?
    Kevin

    Too busy enjoying the music....

    European loan coordinator for Graham Slee HiFi system components..

  4. #144
    Join Date: Nov 2010

    Location: Yorkshire

    Posts: 8,893
    I'm Andrew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian2957 View Post
    Nice write up Andrew. The 2MB is excellent for the money ain't it ?
    Cheers. £515 is a lot for a MM, not the most expensive, some boutique brands cost more.

    Quote Originally Posted by CageyH View Post
    It used to be….
    Seems flipping expensive now.
    How much better is it than a 2M bronze?
    £515 for the 2MB
    £295 for the Bronze
    SS
    CD Teac VRDS25X(Audiotuned) DAC Caiman SEG+15V PSU+Dorado DECK 1210 Mat Crystal Audio Mods MN Base/Bearing/Platter+Ebony armboard Feet Isonoe PSU Paul Hynes SR7EHD-27XL/DCSXL Ag DC lead/3 Stage Regs/Recap PCB+No Pitch/Strobe/Light ARM SME V(Kondo Ag Rewire&Tags) MC Cadenza Black FGS CABLES Arm Yannis SPD-4 IC Yannis 222 Litz+Ag bullets Power WAR PRE ATC SCA2 SPEAKERS ATC 50ASL STANDS Atacama PHONO Sugden Masterclass PA4 SUT Ortofon ST80SE POWER PSAudio P10

    VALVE
    PRE
    Croft Epoch(Modded) AMP Sondex S100 (Modded) SPEAKERS Tannoy 15"MG+RFC Warwick cabs+ Ref XO DECKS Garrard301/401 (Bastin) Mat Teunto Bearings 301/401(Bastin) Plinth Moldovan/Bastin Arms 3012(Ikeda Ag wired) SME V12 PSU Eagle+Tachometer MC Ag Meister v2/Royal N SPUs CABLES Arm Yannis 420.5 Litz+ SpeakerPC Tripple C+WBT-0681 Ag IC Oyaide FTVS-510 AgWBT 0110Ag Phonostage Paradise(4 Box Mega-Modded)

    REAL SOUND
    Heybrook TT2 (Isokinetic PSU) + Alphason HR100s + Shure SC35C (JICO B/SAS) + Radford SC25 Pre + EAR 834 (Modded Clone) + 300b Amp + Full Duelund cabling loom



  5. #145
    Join Date: May 2011

    Location: Glasgow

    Posts: 7,600
    I'm Brian.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CageyH View Post
    It used to be….
    Seems flipping expensive now.
    How much better is it than a 2M bronze?
    Sorry Kevin, never heard the Bronze.
    Regards
    Brian

    Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment . (Rumi )


    Korus Computer Audio music server
    JustBoom DAC . HRT Musicstreamer 2
    Amplifier : Sony TA FB740R
    Speakers : Tannoy 637
    Interconnects : MS Audio / Klotz MC5000 .
    Speaker cables : Western Electric 16AG

  6. #146
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: Sunny (occasionally) Devon

    Posts: 1,696
    I'm Shane.

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    I’ve never understood the recent veneration for those midrange Shure cartridges from the early ‘70s. The s 44s and 55s were pretty much outdated by about 1974 and the big sellers were the M75 series. The M75/6 was cheap and cheerful and went out by the dozen stuck into Garrard SP25s, making fairly gruesome noises in student’s bedrooms through Amstrad 8000s and Wharfedale Dentons. Meanwhile their parents joined in the fun with M75EDs bolted to Pioneer PL12Ds with Rotel RX402s (which were actually rather lovely) and pairs of Linton XPs. These were the mainstays of HiFi shops nationwide and systems like that sold by the thousand but they were the clapped-out Anglia and Mk2 Cortina of the HiFi world. The contemporary Ortofons, ADCs and such like we’re on a whole different level even then, so to compare the Shures with modern Ortofon equivalents is a bit like trying to do a serious comparison between a Cortina and a new BMW. It wouldn’t stand a chance.
    Time flies like an arrow.
    Fruit flies like a banana.

  7. #147
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 5,430
    I'm James.

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    Great read Andy of you experience with the two cartridges. The 2M is expensive but once heard never forgotten for good and some bad. Surface noise is an issue but it’s the price you pay for that vivid dynamic all revealing presentation

    The bronze may be warmer and quieter and is certainly cheaper but one thing every person I know who has heard the two say it misses the excitement of the black.
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

  8. #148
    Join Date: Nov 2010

    Location: Yorkshire

    Posts: 8,893
    I'm Andrew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shane View Post
    I’ve never understood the recent veneration for those midrange Shure cartridges from the early ‘70s. The s 44s and 55s were pretty much outdated by about 1974 and the big sellers were the M75 series. The M75/6 was cheap and cheerful and went out by the dozen stuck into Garrard SP25s, making fairly gruesome noises in student’s bedrooms through Amstrad 8000s and Wharfedale Dentons. Meanwhile their parents joined in the fun with M75EDs bolted to Pioneer PL12Ds with Rotel RX402s (which were actually rather lovely) and pairs of Linton XPs. These were the mainstays of HiFi shops nationwide and systems like that sold by the thousand but they were the clapped-out Anglia and Mk2 Cortina of the HiFi world. The contemporary Ortofons, ADCs and such like we’re on a whole different level even then, so to compare the Shures with modern Ortofon equivalents is a bit like trying to do a serious comparison between a Cortina and a new BMW. It wouldn’t stand a chance.
    Hi, Shane, I'll try and explain why I'm doing this. Firstly we all know that the M55E is a very old and outdated cartridge but with a little tweaking it can be something that can sound very very good indeed, this is mainly a new body and a new stylus and cantilever. This process is quite costly but I mainly do it for fun
    and experimentation. It also depends on why your comparing the cartridges. In this instance it's all about how a system can emotionally stimulate me, that's the whole point of the REAL SOUND philosophy. I can do analytical very well, I have a Ortofon Cadenza black + SME V-12 and 1210 TT that's probably as clinical and laboratory sounding as you'll get and in some instances I love using that system. This whole thread has been about trying to listen to music (for me) in a different way, not about THD, VTA angles, etc, etc, more about how I feel when I listen to things and seeing if I can use that experience for positive therapeutic gain rather than worrying about how a certain valve or headshell should sound.

    The M55E does sound quite a lot better on my Garrard 301 and SME 3012 arm, not so good on the Alphason+TT2 combo, so in this instance it didn't really move me in any great way, it didn't connect, so it got put back in the cart box for another day. I've had a real blast trying out the M55E on the TT2+Alphason combo, it's been fun and interesting to see how old technology when mated with some new technology can perform. So, the REAL SOUND experiment will continue, just messing about, trying stuff, seeing how it sounds and seeing if it captivates or moves me emotionally in any way. The experiment is working, I feel happier through the day pondering what can be done next in the system.
    SS
    CD Teac VRDS25X(Audiotuned) DAC Caiman SEG+15V PSU+Dorado DECK 1210 Mat Crystal Audio Mods MN Base/Bearing/Platter+Ebony armboard Feet Isonoe PSU Paul Hynes SR7EHD-27XL/DCSXL Ag DC lead/3 Stage Regs/Recap PCB+No Pitch/Strobe/Light ARM SME V(Kondo Ag Rewire&Tags) MC Cadenza Black FGS CABLES Arm Yannis SPD-4 IC Yannis 222 Litz+Ag bullets Power WAR PRE ATC SCA2 SPEAKERS ATC 50ASL STANDS Atacama PHONO Sugden Masterclass PA4 SUT Ortofon ST80SE POWER PSAudio P10

    VALVE
    PRE
    Croft Epoch(Modded) AMP Sondex S100 (Modded) SPEAKERS Tannoy 15"MG+RFC Warwick cabs+ Ref XO DECKS Garrard301/401 (Bastin) Mat Teunto Bearings 301/401(Bastin) Plinth Moldovan/Bastin Arms 3012(Ikeda Ag wired) SME V12 PSU Eagle+Tachometer MC Ag Meister v2/Royal N SPUs CABLES Arm Yannis 420.5 Litz+ SpeakerPC Tripple C+WBT-0681 Ag IC Oyaide FTVS-510 AgWBT 0110Ag Phonostage Paradise(4 Box Mega-Modded)

    REAL SOUND
    Heybrook TT2 (Isokinetic PSU) + Alphason HR100s + Shure SC35C (JICO B/SAS) + Radford SC25 Pre + EAR 834 (Modded Clone) + 300b Amp + Full Duelund cabling loom



  9. #149
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: Sunny (occasionally) Devon

    Posts: 1,696
    I'm Shane.

    Default

    I do get what you’re trying to do here. I think it’s a brilliant idea to try and put the technology into the back of your mind and concentrate on the emotional experience of the music. To a large extent that was the idea driving Peter and Stuart when they set up Heybrook, that led to the HB2 and HB1. When you start listening to music rather than HiFi it’s surprising how much highly respected gear falls by the wayside and how some of the overlooked stuff suddenly shines, so it’s certainly worthwhile digging out things you might normally ignore for re-evaluation.

    Still gives me a jolt seeing those old Shures being resurrected though!
    Time flies like an arrow.
    Fruit flies like a banana.

  10. #150
    Join Date: Nov 2010

    Location: Yorkshire

    Posts: 8,893
    I'm Andrew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shane View Post
    I do get what you’re trying to do here. I think it’s a brilliant idea to try and put the technology into the back of your mind and concentrate on the emotional experience of the music. To a large extent that was the idea driving Peter and Stuart when they set up Heybrook, that led to the HB2 and HB1. When you start listening to music rather than HiFi it’s surprising how much highly respected gear falls by the wayside and how some of the overlooked stuff suddenly shines, so it’s certainly worthwhile digging out things you might normally ignore for re-evaluation.

    Still gives me a jolt seeing those old Shures being resurrected though!
    Brilliant! I'll try and not jolt you too much, I might need your advice again at some point in the future.
    SS
    CD Teac VRDS25X(Audiotuned) DAC Caiman SEG+15V PSU+Dorado DECK 1210 Mat Crystal Audio Mods MN Base/Bearing/Platter+Ebony armboard Feet Isonoe PSU Paul Hynes SR7EHD-27XL/DCSXL Ag DC lead/3 Stage Regs/Recap PCB+No Pitch/Strobe/Light ARM SME V(Kondo Ag Rewire&Tags) MC Cadenza Black FGS CABLES Arm Yannis SPD-4 IC Yannis 222 Litz+Ag bullets Power WAR PRE ATC SCA2 SPEAKERS ATC 50ASL STANDS Atacama PHONO Sugden Masterclass PA4 SUT Ortofon ST80SE POWER PSAudio P10

    VALVE
    PRE
    Croft Epoch(Modded) AMP Sondex S100 (Modded) SPEAKERS Tannoy 15"MG+RFC Warwick cabs+ Ref XO DECKS Garrard301/401 (Bastin) Mat Teunto Bearings 301/401(Bastin) Plinth Moldovan/Bastin Arms 3012(Ikeda Ag wired) SME V12 PSU Eagle+Tachometer MC Ag Meister v2/Royal N SPUs CABLES Arm Yannis 420.5 Litz+ SpeakerPC Tripple C+WBT-0681 Ag IC Oyaide FTVS-510 AgWBT 0110Ag Phonostage Paradise(4 Box Mega-Modded)

    REAL SOUND
    Heybrook TT2 (Isokinetic PSU) + Alphason HR100s + Shure SC35C (JICO B/SAS) + Radford SC25 Pre + EAR 834 (Modded Clone) + 300b Amp + Full Duelund cabling loom



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