Denon DL S1 again......

[carruthersesq]

Thanks Tom, Kai and Scott.

I have a either a few weeks to do or a new cart to find. I do think I'll try an SUT before I make my final decision though.

[Marra]

I've used a pair of Sowter 1299 SUT's into a MM phonostage with 40db gain to good effect. Although I am currently using a Paradise MC stage set to 220R.

I can't find them listed on Sowters site any more though.

[Marco]

Hi Steve,

Just sent you a PM. Sorry I missed your message today, as I was out. I'll bell you tomorrow when I'm free, hopefully at a time that also suits you!

Just quickly though, properly set-up and partnered, the DL-S1 blows any AT cartridge I've heard (including the 33PTG, as good as that is) out the water, in terms of any area of musicality you care to mention, and simply pulling information out of the grooves in a very accurate and entertaining way.

However, they're fussy buggers to optimise, and in my experience work best in light, but rigid headshells, on typical Jap-style tonearms, through valve MM phono stages/head amps with plenty of gain.

I can assure you that I wouldn't use a DL-S1, or have waxed lyrical about it, if it weren't up to such praise... Whether we can get it to work its magic in your system, however, is the challenge faced, but I'm confident we can sort it out.

Until we have a chat tomorrow, could you outline your system again, specifically in detail all the analogue bits. Cheers!

Marco.

[carruthersesq]

No problem Marco. Any time before 10.30am and then after 3pm I should be free, a few meetings inbetween.

My current set up is a Funk Firm Little Super Deck (LSD) with Funk Firm F5 tone arm, wired as it came out of the factory. The head shell is the stock headshell that it came with. My phono stage is a Primare R32 (which I feel is better and just as adjustable as the Trchord Dino2 with Dino+ psu or Whest Two I had before it). This feeds my Naim Supernait2 which drives my Naim SBL's.


And again, thanks everyone for their input.

[Marco]

Mmm... I think I can see what your issue might be. We may have a bit of a challenge, Steve, getting a DL-S1 to perform optimally in that sort of set-up, especially with Naim gear, without making some significant changes.

Would you be averse to trying a valve phono stage? Otherwise, I wouldn't entertain using an SUT with your current kit, although a head amp could work well. If you're not aware, head amps are very different from SUTs, being active solid-state devices the same as the rest of your electronics.

Your T/T and arm is fine, though. My fear is that in trying to successfully accommodate a DL-S1, you could end up disrupting your system, and perhaps what you currently enjoy about it. In that respect, it might be better slotting in a cartridge that's happier in your set-up, without making significant changes, but that decision is yours

Marco.

[carruthersesq]

Interesting Marco.

I had no idea of the difference between an SUT and head amp so thanks for the clarity. I also have no preconceived ideas on how to get this bad boy singing. I do have my name down to try Jez's demo head amp so I'll wait until that test to rule out the Denon me thinks.

[blake]

I'll leave SUT suggestions to others with experience in that area but in terms of active gain 62 dB is not going to cut it in the vast majority of systems with that cartridge. It would probably sound dead and anemic.

With active gain, either with a head amp or straight into a MC stage you will want around 67 dB of gain. I would expect that cartridge to really snap into focus and come alive with that. Being short 5 dB of gain with a very low output cartridge like that is a recipe for poor performance.

Shoot for 67-68 dB of active gain or pick up an SUT that will give you the equivalent and then re-evaluate things. Or move on to another cartridge which is better suited to the gain structure of your phono pre. The AT 33 PTG is pretty much perfect for it so it is no surprise that you're experiencing what you are.

[Arkless Electronics]

I'll leave SUT suggestions to others with experience in that area but in terms of active gain 62 dB is not going to cut it in the vast majority of systems with that cartridge. It would probably sound dead and anemic.

With active gain, either with a head amp or straight into a MC stage you will want around 67 dB of gain. I would expect that cartridge to really snap into focus and come alive with that. Being short 5 dB of gain with a very low output cartridge like that is a recipe for poor performance.

Shoot for 67-68 dB of active gain or pick up an SUT that will give you the equivalent and then re-evaluate things. Or move on to another cartridge which is better suited to the gain structure of your phono pre. The AT 33 PTG is pretty much perfect for it so it is no surprise that you're experiencing what you are.

I'm sorry but this is total flooby dust from the brothers Grimm..... The amount of gain effects nothing but how high you need to turn up the volume control

[Marco]

Lol - we disagree on that one too, Jez. My experiences in that area concur very much with Blake's. I agree that it *should* just be about volume, but there also appears to be a knock-on effect, in terms of creating a 'weedy', gutless sound, when the gain structure is sub-optimal.

More tomorrow, off to bed now!

Marco.

[struth]

I'll leave SUT suggestions to others with experience in that area but in terms of active gain 62 dB is not going to cut it in the vast majority of systems with that cartridge. It would probably sound dead and anemic.

With active gain, either with a head amp or straight into a MC stage you will want around 67 dB of gain. I would expect that cartridge to really snap into focus and come alive with that. Being short 5 dB of gain with a very low output cartridge like that is a recipe for poor performance.

Shoot for 67-68 dB of active gain or pick up an SUT that will give you the equivalent and then re-evaluate things. Or move on to another cartridge which is better suited to the gain structure of your phono pre. The AT 33 PTG is pretty much perfect for it so it is no surprise that you're experiencing what you are.

Inclined to agree.. 62 is minimal to get some punch and dynamics into the signal. If its not high enough then just amplifying it at other end wont compensate imo. Late 60's or even 70db will make a big difference .