Vile lies and fear mongering from a pig lover!

[Audio Advent]

The man needed to die. Shame he didn't suffer more first.

The world is a hard place and bleating about it won't change it.

You want torture? Someone else showing their true colours..

Whether Bin Laden died or not is neither here nor there. To get back on topic, this is about deliberately lying in a public speach to influence people's thoughts and to lead a bunch of sheep into bleating the same - it is vile, dispicable and not least of all desperate.

Corbyn (and Boris Johnson) expressed that the murder of Bin Laden when unarmed and the hands of US Soldiers follows a string of death and illegal, immoral acts all stemming from each other and that descent into immorallity is a tragedy. 100s of thousands of people have died off the back of the US's actions in response to 9/11 none of which have achieved much other than making their government and nationalists feel better from a bit of revenge on mainly innocent races of people.

To twist that expression to say Corbyn was a supporter of Bin Laden is .. I've said it already, vile etc.

Killing Bin Laden was a crime whether anyone is bothered by it or not. For the Tories to vilify someone pointing out criminal behaviour... is crazy! But I guess they're used to that, telling people to back off when it's their own kind committing them..

[Audio Advent]

Bang on Martin! I don't believe in 'other people's' measure of morality, or right and wrong. And as I mind my own business most of the time and treat people decently, I don't believe 'other people's' rules and laws apply to me, as I don't need them!! 'Society' supposedly creates moral values and rules, but society is just an invention, or just a concept if you like and I didn't volunteer to join it (whatever it is) when I was born.

How do you square that up with being a moderator on here? Can we do what we like on here too, other people's rules don't apply etc? I guess this community is an invention or concept.

Society and communities are created out of thin air, they create themselves via interactions and require only two people to start them off. "society" is a description of the way people behave together, it is not a "thing", just a description of what is created by human interaction. The only way you can say you are not part of one is to refuse to interact, stay at home, be a hermit - many people do and also find solace in their hifi and the internet to compensate.

Life itself (the thing you say you didn't volunteer to join?) is not a society.

If you actively remain within a particular society you are part of that society by choice. You can move about the world, you can find groups of people to be involved with or withdraw yourself from it too. The choice is entirely yours!

[Macca]

So your standard of guilt is someone claiming responsibility for something, nothing more than a sentence or perhaps just the accusation of something by some body you trust? And you're prepared to murder on their say so? You're coming across as a danger to society as you're potentially available to use as weapon via simply convincing you of something or other. To some people that's radicalisation you'd be susceptable to.

To act against people being such weapons turned against their own or other's societies, we have trails and courts of law.

You are extrapolating again. In the specific case of Bin Laden he admitted guilt - he took pride in his actions. So why have a trial? You don't try someone who pleads guilty, you just sentence them. So the execution of Bin Laden was not in anyway against the rules or 'immoral'.

Essentially Corbyn's postition is that if we had never bothered them, they would never have bothered us. I note that there are a few people here who also take that postition.

It would be great if we could just leave them to it, killing each other like savages, that would be my first choice too. Unfortunately there is this little thing called oil that happens to be buried in the ground under the land where these folk are grubbung about. Since our entire civilisation is based on oil and will collapse without it it is necessary to secure those reserves. Hence Gulf 2 and the consequent 'fallout'.

[Audio Advent]

You are extrapolating again. In the specific case of Bin Laden he admitted guilt - he took pride in his actions. So why have a trial? You don't try someone who pleads guilty, you just sentence them. So the execution of Bin Laden was not in anyway against the rules or 'immoral'.

Essentially Corbyn's postition is that if we had never bothered them, they would never have bothered us. I note that there are a few people here who also take that postition.

It would be great if we could just leave them to it, killing each other like savages, that would be my first choice too. Unfortunately there is this little thing called oil that happens to be buried in the ground under the land where these folk are grubbung about. Since our entire civilisation is based on oil and will collapse without it it is necessary to secure those reserves. Hence Gulf 2 and the consequent 'fallout'.

You're extrapolating again - that is not his position as I have ever seen it presented nor as I understand it.

Leave who to what? We're talking about Bin Laden aren't we?

If someone claims responsibility outside of a court of law for whatever PR or self-aggrandising reason, it is not a guilty plea inside a court. Once he was in court, he could then plead guilty where it meant something towards the process and justice in a civil society.

If you're happy to let people kill each other (whoever you're talking about here) without care than you show a certain side of yourself which isn't pretty. Certainly there was no need to attempt to "secure oil reserves" in the gulf as the oil will always flow via those willing to sell it to and with the right diplomatic efforts we become valued customers. Well that whole idea got F*@ked up because the US and UK tried to take it all by force instead.

Then there is the very small point that we are only slaves to oil because we choose to be. Why do our governments choose to be? Because they get short-term kickbacks in all forms from those directly porifiting hansomely from the continued use of it. We could have come off the addiction a long time had there been a need and a desire to do so.

Anyway, wanted to see if that youtube video in the OP will embed now, given some advice on posting them.

[Audio Advent]

Hey! Works now..

[Macca]

If you're happy to let people kill each other (whoever you're talking about here) without care than you show a certain side of yourself which isn't pretty. Certainly there was no need to attempt to "secure oil reserves" in the gulf as the oil will always flow via those willing to sell it to and with the right diplomatic efforts we become valued customers. Well that whole idea got F*@ked up because the US and UK tried to take it all by force instead.

Then there is the very small point that we are only slaves to oil because we choose to be. Why do our governments choose to be? Because they get short-term kickbacks in all forms from those directly porifiting hansomely from the continued use of it. We could have come off the addiction a long time had there been a need and a desire to do so.


There is no way we can get by without oil. Absolutely no way at all unless we go back to living in mud huts and eating straw. If we do not come up with a viable alternative like cold fusion then when the oil does eventually run out that is what we will go back to doing. Don't kid yourself.

You are right in thinking that I really do not care what a bunch of people half a world away do to each other. I couldn't give a toss. The biggest mistake we made was to kow tow to the Americans after WW2 and set up the independant middle-east states in territory that was, at the time, under British control. That gave the muslims control of the oil and that has brought us eventually to the situation we have now.

You cannot rely on these people to do honest business - look up OPEC - in addition the global trade in oil is done in dollars, making the dollar the de facto global reserve currency. If the oil producers decide they don't want to sell in dollars, that would have a huge effect on Western economies. Now you start to see the real reason Saddam had to go.

it is easy to stand on the sideline and be 'mister morality' but if you were the one to be faced with these problems and have to make a decision - bearing in mind your responsibility is to your own people not those of a foreign country - you would find that all too often pragmatism has to trump 'the better angels of our nature'.