Jelco 250S vs 250ST

[Beobloke]

Thanks for the clarification, Adam - much appreciated!

Btw, it was nice meeting your good lady and you at Whittlebury Hall. I enjoyed our 'session' in the bar during the evening

Will you be doing your thing again at the pie show in March?

Marco.

Yes, it was indeed a great evening in the bar -good to meet you and put a face to a name at last!

I will indeed be doing the pie show next year - how about you? I hope to have a helper with me next time as well, to allow me to have a wander round.

Oh, and just in case anyone cries "Off Topic" at this point - I'll be bringing along a few more of the Beobloke turntable collection to my room at the show next year, and at least one will have a Jelco arm on it........

[Marco]

Yes, AoS will be represented (I'll definitely be there), and this time we'll be bringing our own speakers - namely my vintage Tannoy Lockwoods.

Make sure you drop by and have a listen. I'll definitely pop by your room and say hello. Can't wait to see your selection of T/T 'misdemeanours' next year!



Marco.

[Ammonite Audio]

Yes, AoS will be represented (I'll definitely be there), and this time we'll be bringing our own speakers - namely my vintage Tannoy Lockwoods......

I dare you to keep the formica finish for that!

[Marco]

LOL - why? Chances are, they'll probably be re-veneered by then

Marco.

[blake]

I've had a good play with all three types and can confirm that the SA-250ST is indeed a better arm than the SA-250 S-shaped type. I know not the rhyme or reason behind it but the tube on the S-shaped version is not as well damped and shows itself as much more lively in vibrational terms when measured by accelerometer. This translates into a less focused sound and the ST variant is tighter and better controlled, with a more coherent soundstage. The SA-750D is a different kettle of fish, however, and is a stonker, as many of us here know!

The SA-370 is an older type that came as standard on LAD turntables amongst others, and bears more of a resemblance to the SA-750 and the older Sumiko MMT and is another good performer. One of mine went up to Johnnie at Audio Origami (well, actually, I sent him a bag of bits and said "see what the hell you can do with these"....) and it came back rebuilt and rejuvenated, and he was quite complementary about it. Sounds great as well!

I'm curious about this. Did you put the accelerometer on the 750D as well? And if so, how did it compare to the 250S in vibrational terms? If the 750D tests better, would that have anything to do with the improved bearings (I would assume not, but who knows?) in the 750D or would it come down to superior damping in the arm tube itself.

Having owned a Sumiko FT3, a Sumiko MMT and a 750D (which is clearly the best with a wood bodied Denon 103R) I would have assumed that the 250ST most closely approximated the FT3 (in terms of geometry and its compatibilty with higher compliance cartridges due to its lower mass) while the 250S would be more of a cousin to the MMT.

The 750D certainly resembles the MMT. I'd be curious as to whether it has significantly improved vibrational characteristics relative to the 250S (and I'd certainly be happy to hear about that) with respect to the arm tube itself and not just the bearings-that would indicate even further improvements in the 750D beyond bearing, wiring and the oil damping capability, but I have my doubts with respect to this.

I think the arm tube is essentially the same in the 750D and 250S with the exception of the chrome finish, but I'd be happy to hear otherwise. In my correspondence with Jelco, they made no mention of inherent differences in the arm tubes of the 250S and 750D.

Vibrational characteristics not withstanding, I would think that the increased mass of the 250S would make for better performance with certain (read lower compliance) cartridges. What cartridges did you use in your evaluation of the 250S vs. the 250ST when establishing that the 250S has less focus and a less coherent sound stage?

[Dave Cawley]

Hi Blake

Suggest you read all the articles Adam and Noel wrote in Hi Fi World about this. Jelco arms have been tested on numerous turntables as well, notably the Avid which I supplied to them. Jelco Japan do not speak very good English and often do not answer questions, you can't assume anything from this though, as I found out! There is no evidence to suggest arm materials are the same.

I have an identical test set up to Hi Fi World www.soundhifi.com/test.html if there is anything you want specifically measured, and can tell me why, I would be happy to oblige?

Regards

Dave

[Beobloke]

Sadly, time constraints for the publication of the relevant issue meant that the Jelco SA-750D did not get measured when I reviewed it, which was a great shame, however, the SA-250, SA-250ST and the Dr. Feickert 1o5 (which is merely a 10.5" version of the SA-250) did, and the ST was notably better than both of them. I would still be very keen to see a measurement of the SA-750D to see how it compares but my ears tell me that it has much more of a sonic family resemblance to the ST than the cheaper S-shaped versions (the 1o5 was particuarly disappointing, being flat and lifeless sounding).

Regarding cartridges, all my comparisons have been carried out using both the Goldring 2500 MM and Audio Technica AT-OC9MLII MC which will behave and sound different to the DL103 variants, but at least provide a constant point of reference. As an aside, I have found the 2500 to be quite finicky about the arms in which it is mounted (the older 1042 was much more user-friendly in this respect) but the best sound I have ever heard it give was in the SA-750D - a winning combination it would appear!

[blake]

Hi Dave: I have Adam's Hi Fi World review of the 750D and it was certainly a factor in my decision to spring for the 750D over the 250S and I've been extremely happy! If there are other articles, I won't have any access to them; if you could point me in their direction or link to them that would be great.

I guess what I was really curious about was a direct comparison on the vibrational characteristics of the 250S and the 750D which would indicate that there is, in fact, a difference in the arm tube relating to construction, damping or material rather than just finish. This would make me feel even better about my purchase of the 750D! It might also further explain the 750D's superiority (and or the differences between the 250S and 250ST) beyond potential cartridge/tonearm incompatibilities relating to mass and compliance. It would make sense to me, for example, that the Goldring and AT would not like the "Feickert" arm.

Adam: your comment on the Feickert 1o5 is particularly interesting (almost funny!) to me as I got into a bit of a dustup with a poster or two at Audiogon for suggesting that the Feickert arm was simply a longer version of the SA-250 and the same arm that a couple of Jelco retailers around the world were selling for considerably (and I mean considerably!!!) less money. They insisted that the Feickert was more advanced and improved by Jelco with superior bearings, etc. but really provided no concrete information or evidence; sadly this has been a common occurrence with Jelco in the past-with, for example, arms like the Graham Robin and "Koetsu" arm being sold at much higher prices than the stone cold Jelco badged equivalent.

There is no doubt, though, that Jelco turns out a fine product at a very reasonable price.