When does the SL-1200 become too expensive?

[Ammonite Audio]

I've been pondering whether the Technics SL-1200 remains good value, when large amounts of upgrade cash are bestowed upon it; and felt that the question merits a dedicated thread. I'm not talking specifically about the £5k deck reviewed in HFW, nor do I wish to do so.

Certain Techy upgrades are complete no-brainers, eg upgraded PSU and (I am certain) a modified main bearing. Re-wiring the standard arm is also a good thing, costing around £100 through Audio Origami. That little lot brings the cost of a new SL-1200 to a little over £1000. Taking the upgrade process further, along the lines of those recommended here by Marco and others, a new mat, feet, armboard and a good but inexpensive replacement arm like the Jelco SA-250 bring the total tally to the wrong side of £1500, before a cartridge is added. It's very easy to push the bill significantly beyond £1500 without too much thought: I have spent that much, and admit to feeling uneasy about getting a little carried away!

Now, that £1500 may still represent good value in terms of performance versus price, but the deck is now up against some serious retail competition, eg Townshend Rock, Avids, Funks, Clearaudios etc (not to mention a refurbished SP-10). I should add that I have no experience whatsoever of those decks, so I'm not in a position to comment on their relative performance.

Some AoS members may be in a position to comment on the basis of personal experiences with the Techy, upgrades and comparisons with other decks that compete on price; and I would be very interested in hearing their thoughts.

[DaveK]

Good post Shuggie, I for one will monitor this one with great interest, so come on guys, make your case(s)
Cheers,

[DSJR]

Not having done the comparison, this will have to be supposition on my part, but the Notts Analogue HyperSpace is an excellent turntable of the "heavy-n-solid" variety and sells for under £2,500 if memory serves. I'd respectfully suggest that this would be a main competitor to a fully loaded SL1200. I'm reliably informed by friends with good hearing that a totally standard SL1200 is left standing even by comparison with a Spacedeck...

The thing with the Techie is that you will get Rega levels of performance out of it without doing anything at all. the fact that one can easily and fairly painlessly upgrade it in stages YOURSELF as budget allows is a definite plus point IMO.

Please could Marco or Dave Cawley advise on the basic costs of a restored SP10 with plinth, as this would be the direction many SL1200 owners would take (they seem as anti-belt drive as the belt drive people are to the better direct drives out there )

I must admit that the memories I have of the Mentor/Decca combo I once had, along with the more recent sounds I heard from a NAS Dias/12" AceSpace/ZYX R100 were truly devastating and reminded me quite forcefully just how good LP's could be given a decent platform upon which to play them - I hardly play CD's at all these days, as my neglected LP collection gets a good thrashing whenever I'm able to do it.....

[leo]

Seconded! very good post

[Marco]

Yep, excellent post Shuggs. I'll get to this later as my level of experience here should provide some insight into what you ask.

Right now though, lunch awaits!

Laters,

Marco.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I personaly would say that it comes down to the individual! Take into account an individals personal finances, experience of other turntables, personal taste in audio (to some the 1210 may not be beaten.. To that person good value remains at whatever they have spent on it) and aesthetics. Also as dsjr dave mentioned, an individuals desire to be able to tinker, excentricity is prob worth looking at as well!

I know as an answer this post is useless to you, I just I'd throw it in there!

[Dave Cawley]

Townshend Rock, Avids, Funks, Clearaudios

All the above are belt drive. The SL-1200 has the timing that you would expect of a direct drive. To buy new, and compare like for like, most would cost the same or up to three times as much.

One advantage of the SL1200 is that you can buy a used one on eBay, put a DL-103 or 440MLa on it, and use it straight away for a few hundred pounds. Later you can change the PSU, arm, cartridge, feet, mat, bearing, platter and electronics. In easy steps as the budget allows, or stop half way.

A SP-10 is always going to add well over £1,000 to the equation, if not considerably more.

For people with money and not much time, there is always the Avid Volvere and the SME-20. Or on a budget the Clearaudio Emotion.

All the decks I have mentioned in this post need careful matching of the arm and cartridge, and not by maths either. And with the exception of the Funk I have experience of all of them.

Regards

Dave

[Codifus]

I've seen these threads all over this forums about SL1200 or 1210 upgrades here and there, and I've always asked myself why?

Is this not the same world famous Technics SL-1200 made legendary by the vinyl DJs?

If so, because it was a turntable produced for high performance/high abuse disc jockeying, with a high torque direct drive motor, light plastic base and chromed steel arm for economic and toughness, but not acoustic reasons, I would think that to start upgrading this unit to a high end audiophile turntable would be analogous to starting with a Jaguar and turning it into a Rolls. Converting a Bentley would be much much easier

Starting with the basics, how can a direct drive motor, a motor that is coupled directly to the platter, have a chance to compete with a belt drive motor in terms on sonic/vibration isolation, etc?

I don't mean to offend anyone, I just find it rather bizarre. This makes me also think of people who prefer Windows PCs over Macs, and they tend to do so because they like to fiddle with what's under the hood. I like to fiddle too, to an extent. I do own a Beresford DAC and have already replaced several opamps. The difference between me and, I gather, the people who like to tinker, is that when I do find an opamp that is very satisfying, that will be it for me. Nothing's perfect, but if something gives me satisfaction in the high 90th percentile, good enough for me.

The tinkerer may, even after finding a very satisfying opamp for his unit, continue to experiment, just because they can.

Nothing's wrong with tinkering, but often I find that those who like to tinker tend to fault devices with limited modding capability, when in fact the only "fault" is that the device is not easily upgradeable.

Ultimately, I just want to sit back and enjoy the music.


CD

[Ammonite Audio]

That's a perfectly reasonable view to take, until you've experienced a glimmer of what this apparently crap DJ deck can do, given enough help and guidance (from scratch it is pretty awful sounding, IMHO). It is most definitely capable of transcending its humble origins, quite dramatically so with a decent PSU and rewiring of the standard arm (and probably a modified main bearing too), but I do wonder where the law of diminishing returns kicks in, hence the point of this thread. Your observation about the 90th percentile is a good one, as I have on many occasions simply gone too far with tweaking and modifying, to no good effect, wasting much cash in the process, and I do not wish to repeat old mistakes with the Technics!

It is reassuring, though, that Dave Cawley is such a strong advocate for the SL-1200, when he does carry a good range of other turntables. As he says, there are plenty of used ones around, and every bit can be bought easily. They are easily sold on, too.

Direct drive decks do seem to have something about them in terms of musical 'drive', which is not necessarily missing from all belt drives, but once experienced, it's a tad difficult to go back, even if a belter may do other things better (a friend has a Raven-One, which is utterly glorious to listen to). Belt drives are clearly not inherently better, though. Both my DD decks share this sense of 'drive', although the Kenwood is perhaps more graceful and lyrical than the Technics. I sold my Heavied Spacedeck in favour of the Kenwood, which is an indication of how much I was surprised by that particular DD machine, but I have also warmed to the Technics, even though the journey up to this point has been a bit bumpy. I have very much warmed to its ease of use, compact dimensions and the convenience of a lid!

Is the Technics worth all of the money that I have heaped on it so far?

Possibly.

Would I have a Raven-One instead, given the chance (academic question as I do not have the cash)?

Probably. But that's not an answer to my original question - I am genuinely interested to hear others' opinions and experiences.

[Clive]

I've seen these threads all over this forums about SL1200 or 1210 upgrades here and there, and I've always asked myself why?

I'm not a Techie devotee (given a different starting point maybe I would be) but I do understand why many are. The point about the 1200 / 1210 is that the deck had its development and tooling costs well and truly amortized many years ago. For a company to make a similar product from scratch today would result in a very expensive product. The 1200 / 1210 may not be intended to be an audiophile deck but it has a lot of what's required and just needs some mods to make a very fine audiophile deck.