Why Do I need a DAC?????

[Varun]

Hello Forum and Toga wearers;

Mike Reed called me the most Prolific thread cobbler- I did not take an offence as I do not think Mike will ever offend anyone. All the threads I had initiated-atleast most of them had a purpose- and a personal one.

Now- the question I put to the benches- is Why on earth would I ever need a DAC? I was listening to the TEAC half sized box last night. And DSJR would be pleased to know that it had all the info- that I knew was to be heard on the tracks- whether it be the Eagles 'Greatest Hits' or 'Miles Davis' a kind of Blue. Everything- details plus a thumping bass-so much so that I had to reduce the listening volume.

I will let it run- but I need to do nothing to improve what it is doing. Of course the sound stage is flat- and the images also all very frontwards in a single plane.

Do I then want to make it sound like my TT? I do not think it should be necessary- because if I did then I would end up spending big bucks. It is not so good on classical though- but I have to do more listening before I jump to conclusions.

What say you Dalek Supremo!

Comments/advise/opinions welcome

[Werner Berghofer]

Why on earth would I ever need a DAC?

Not that long ago I’ve been asking myself the same question. A friend of mine (running a fine music and movie shop in Vienna) which is very familiar with my music and listening preferences and my audio equipment suggested adding a DAC as a definite improvement to music playback.

I followed his advice, and it didn’t take long until I owned three DACs (two Beresford TC-7520 and a Caiman). I started with adding a Beresford TC-7520 between my Mac mini and the Fatman iTube valve amp on my desk. After I was convinced, another TC-7520 was inserted between the Airport Express and the Yamaha AX-592, driving the Triangle Esprit speakers up the stairs in my living room. Eventually, the Caiman was added to the Airport Express in my bedroom, where I use my AKG K701 headphones. (See here for detailed photos of my setup in case you’re interested.)

After Stan’s advice I swapped the TC-7520 and the Caiman, since I spend most of my time near the desk in my home office (I’m self employed). Now the Caiman is connected to the iTube amp on my desk.

In short, the main purpose of a DAC is to convert the input of any digital source (CD player, computer) to an analogue signal which then can be feeded into an amplifier or active loudspeakers. I have no technical background and certainly avoid touching devices like screwdrivers or soldering irons, but after my own listening experiences I share the opinion that stand-alone DACs perform much better than DACs built into CD players, computers and other equipment.

Kind regards,

[Varun]

Hi Werner,

The question facing me is:- what am I upgrading to the DAC for? I have to realize a need to improve the sound- and have to know which areas the sound needs improving in? So far I do not see such a need making itself manifest- that was the point.

I shall have to wait and see- I have said it before- that many times changes result in shifts and balances in sound reproduction- and people may prefer A to B or C to A but in the end-that is a personal choice which others need not follow. It remains open to question at the best of time whether changing from A to B to C makes all that difference to the sound as it was meant to be heard?

I would love to have a Sony X999???

[Werner Berghofer]

what am I upgrading to the DAC for?

Are there any digital music sources in your playback chain? If yes, try an A/B comparision of the music, first connecting the digital source directly to the amplifier, then after inserting a stand-alone DAC between source and amplifier. If you do not notice a difference, then you certainly don’t need to upgrade the DAC.

If have no clue about that Sony X999 you mention, so I can’t comment on this.

[Spectral Morn]

Hello Forum and Toga wearers;

Mike Reed called me the most Prolific thread cobbler- I did not take an offence as I do not think Mike will ever offend anyone. All the threads I had initiated-atleast most of them had a purpose- and a personal one.

Now- the question I put to the benches- is Why on earth would I ever need a DAC? I was listening to the TEAC half sized box last night. And DSJR would be pleased to know that it had all the info- that I knew was to be heard on the tracks- whether it be the Eagles 'Greatest Hits' or 'Miles Davis' a kind of Blue. Everything- details plus a thumping bass-so much so that I had to reduce the listening volume.

I will let it run- but I need to do nothing to improve what it is doing. Of course the sound stage is flat- and the images also all very frontwards in a single plane.

Do I then want to make it sound like my TT? I do not think it should be necessary- because if I did then I would end up spending big bucks. It is not so good on classical though- but I have to do more listening before I jump to conclusions.

What say you Dalek Supremo!

Comments/advise/opinions welcome

Well Varun

In the past before small audio companies had access to fancy cd transports or even basic ones the only way they could enter the digital game was by making Dacs. In those days it was thought that one could get the biggest jump in performance by keeping your CD player as a transport and hooking up a Dac which had better or more up-to-date technology. It is true that early cd mechanisms are better than more modern ones (such as the Philips CDM1 mineral loaded mech), but adding a Dac did not always get you a jump in sound quality.

The thing that prevented this was jitter. Now over the years many ways have been found to combat this improvements in transmitter and receiver, re-clocking, buffering and even using an external clock and slaving transport and Dac to it. All of these went along way to giving you that improvement in sound, but and there is always a but....the actual transmission cable could be the week link (see Mike Homar's Digital cable thread for some of this). Digital cables for what ever reasons can and do give changes in sound for the better and the worse (I have heard this myself over the years). some of this is down to bad impedance matches, i.e not being 75ohms. The BNC connector and the WBT next gen plugs sort this out, but cable materials and configuration still change the sound. So for awhile manufactures for the most part decided it was easier, cheaper and better sounding to keep the digital signal chain simple and inside the player, some companies decided it was better to try external power supplies instead of external Dacs.

With the advent of PC and higher digital information rates the Dac is back as away of helping upgrade the sound quality of a PC/Mac...lets be honest as far as I can tell computer manufacters are not audiophiles and therefore sound quality has been bottom of the list for what a computer can do. The Dac sorts this out and acts as a digital switching hub as well.

So why should you get/have a Dac...well you don't have to but it will offer you a possible way of improving the sound of your digital playback units, be they computer, legacy red book(CD), MP3 etc.

The star of the affordable Dacs is any of the Beresford units though as with all things system matching is vital and one Dac version may suit your set up better than another, also if you need a USB you will have to go for the 7520 or Caiman over the 7510. However IMHO the 7510 latest version is fantastic for the money...not heard the 7520 or Caiman yet.

Your humble Teac is okay and may well make a good transport(maybe not though if it only has an optical out rather than Rca or BNC, it will IMHO/E be a bit hobbled). During my test of the 7510 I found it to be fussy about Transports, cables, Isolation and mains. The more you pampered it the better the sound. You have read the review so you know what my conclusions were....not definitive, as the results only apply to my set up at that time, but a good guide to what is possible.

As long as the signal going into any Dac is as good as it can be and the nasty jitter is kept away or is absent, then two separates can offer better sound than an all in one.

I will let it run- but I need to do nothing to improve what it is doing. Of course the sound stage is flat- and the images also all very frontwards in a single plane.

Very good digital playback while lacking analogue in this area is far from flat good digital can and does have excellent soundstage height, width and depth. The quality of digital bass is different to analogue and indeed it can be that if a system has been set up for analogue that the addition of digital can upset things and bass is one area that may be out compared to before. Re-setup your speakers to give the best compromise between the two formats.


Hope this helps.


Regards D S D L

[Varun]

Thanks Neil,

I am not too worried about the sound at this stage. I have to improve the support it is on. It is sitting on a ceramic tile atop the power unit for the VPI. Room-I mean space is proving a limitation. I will fine tune that. The outputs on the TEAC are:-1) a single TOSLINK connection and 2) two Phono type RCA connections. At the moment it is connected to the line level Preamp CD input using the VPI phono leads which I had advertised.

I am sure Mike's digital leads will be excellent and that is very much on my mind- if I went that way. I do not regard any computer as ever coming into the system I use for my listening-so streaming etc is out as is head phone use

I also think Mike's underpricing his products- too cheap I mean for what he is putting in and yet I noted people complaining. Not going to get any WBT connected product for less than 100quids anywhere else.

[Alexxus]

I can only tell you what I thought I needed a DAC for.

I chucked out all my 5.1 system (a Nakamichi receiver and 5 Mission speakers) and used the DAC for the DVD to my stereo amp, to start with. I then amplified my laptop via the DAC (before I had the DAC I never felt the need of amplifying whatever crap signal I was gonna get from its sound card). I use the DAC for my satellite receiver. I also use the DAC as a headphone amp for the CD player and all the other sources.

Now that's why I went out and bought one. Been ever so happy since

[John]

I guess for me using a DAC has 2 advantages
1) It provides a cheap upgrade path
2) It gives me lot more variety I can plug in my laptop and listen to internet radio or music saved on my hard drive
I used to have a audiocom mod nu-vista a stunning player but to my ears the dac Laptop/transport is capable of a bit more resolution This is via a old philips transport Cost £40 on ebay and the DAC £250 from Duncan (Tubehunter) and can use the DAC via the laptop too.
So the value is pretty good and can give more flexiabilty

[The Grand Wazoo]

From The Grave

[goraman]

Varun,

Your audio system is never better than it's weakest link.
It was explained to me that starting with the best source is key.
because a low grade lack luster music signal will only get worse as it makes it's way through the inter conects,amp,speaker cables and speakers.
like a rocket if it's 2 degrees off at the launch pad it will miss the moon by thousends of miles, but if it's 2 degrees off at landing it may only miss it's target by a couple of hundred meters,but it will still be on the moon very close to it's targeted landing spot.
Audio is alot like that.
So improve your source, an amp should just be transparent,then work on your speakers.
At 45 years old I bought my last pair of speakers,my system is finished at last,have patience.

Or do nothing at all,choice is yours.