Zerogain forum lives on...

[walpurgis]

Cor Blimey!


(Actually, paragraphing might make that little lot easier to digest)

[Marco]

The problem is not the application of physics but the reductionist and linear application of physics.

Indeed, and I can't abide the behaviour of such reductionists. It's a major bugbear of mine.

Largely applying linear reductionist approaches makes problems tractable but over simplifies things in the real world.

That's exactly my view, and why people with such a rigidly inflexible mindset will struggle to learn anything new. It's almost as if they have an innate fear of questioning their deeply-ingrained dogma/'scientific belief system', which acts as some form of 'comfort blanket'. I blame cognitive dissonance...

Seriously though, I often find 'engineering types' to be precisely like that (why I really don't know), whereas real scientists tend to have more genuinely open and inquisitive minds, considering that there is still much to be learned from the world around us than is explained simply by the laws of physics.

A good example is the steady state measurement of the human hearing response. This leads to a certain measured bandwidth and upper frequency limit. However due to the nonlinear neural signal processing and the distributed multi-sensor nature of human hearing then phase and time differences across our auditory apparatus with its multiple sensory points enable us to detect leading edges far above the maximum steady state frequency even though individual sensory inputs do adhere to this bandwidth limit. This is before we even consider higher level cognitive effects within the neural architecture that make us sensitive to certain (especially digital) distortions and not others. Can one deduce the complexity of life just by measuring dna bases? Absolutely not. Biological systems give rise to rich complex and emergent properties that cannot be deduced merely by breaking something down into its component parts. So it is with perception also and a lot of what we hear arises solely within our cognitive architecture.

An excellent point, very well expressed, and oh so true.

Thats not to say Audiophiles don't imagine a lot of things however...

Oh without doubt, and I have never said differently, as at the end of the day we're fallible humans. Just not that said imagining happens *every* time someone hears something that superficially doesn't conform with the contents of 'Johnny's book of 1950s physics'

That's simply lazy, or some might say, wishful thinking... It certainly doesn't equate to any form of rigorous analysis!

Marco.

[Blueflash]

I cannot be bothered with any "Advice" from those wedded to double blind testing for audio.

The blunting effects are amazing, try a test for audibility of distortion, it will not show up measurable differences. Do the changing fast enough and you will not even be able to hear in phase or out.

It was used to determine the threshold for MP3 compression. 90% could not tel the difference ....

Then they will try to sell you a super tweeter even though they say "nothing can be heard over 20 kHz.

Bit like using a meter with a low impedance to measure a high impedance circuit.

[Marco]

Precisely, Alex. I can't be bothered with them either, simply because there is little incentive for me to listen to them, as I doubt they could teach me anything useful.

An electronics engineer can certainly teach me about building audio equipment and impart to me the technical knowledge necessary to carry that out, *BUT* he won't necessarily be able to teach me to build a better hi-fi system than I already have; those are two entirely different skill sets, so in that respect an EE is no more of an 'expert' than I am - that is what Jez needs to understand when we're discussing hi-fi.

As I said earlier too, almost every one of the 'DBA fetishists/objectivists' systems I've heard have, to my ears, sounded no more than mediocre (mostly crap), so what incentive do I have to adopt their system building methodology and abandon mine (together with all the 'foo' I use, lol), which has succeeded in me putting together numerous superb sounding/musically satisfying systems over the years?

That's the bottom line for me.

I learn from people that I both respect as human beings and who can demonstrate that they have a good pair of ears, not from dogmatic, self-appointed experts with an ego that, IMO, far exceeds their true talents - and by that I mean their ability to assemble hi-fi systems that can impress me, sonically. It means 'hee-haw' to me what technical qualifications anyone has, because that matters not a jot when judging issues relating to sound quality.

The fact is, just because you've got technical qualifications coming out of your wazoo, doesn't mean that you've got a better pair of ears than anyone else for judging sound quality!

Oh and in terms of this ridiculous mania amongst some for DBA testing, as Nick said earlier:

All approaches involve compromise and people have different tastes, different hearing, different goals and differing ability to tolerate some compromises over others. So we all end buying different kit. No-one I know ever takes a test bench into dems so purchase decisions are ultimately always subjective.

Absolutely, and I don't see the DBA-fetishists choosing their system that way, so in the absence of conducting a DBA test in said dem room, how do they *know* that they didn't 'imagine' that the amp they ended up buying was better than the others that they listened to, or the CD player or whatever? And if they 'imagined' that, and consider it ok, then what's wrong with us 'imagining' that mains leads make a difference, or any other subjective aspect of audio?

Where do you draw the line for accepting what is real and what is 'imagined', and who or what gets to be the final arbiter?

It's all nonsense.... At the end of the day, outside of those building the equipment we use to play our music on, hi-fi is ultimately judged subjectively, so as an end user of products and music lover, not a electronics engineer, all you'll ever need to build an excellent sounding system is a good pair of ears!!



Marco.

[Barry]

"All approaches involve compromise and people have different tastes, different hearing, different goals and differing ability to tolerate some compromises over others. So we all end buying different kit."

I have been saying this for some time now; though probably not expressed quite so eloquently.

I think the first sentence should be displayed in the Welcome area. It neatly encapsulates the subjective nature of AoS.

[2020000]

Something rare and beautiful has occurred here today.

Whenever I posted anything like this on P*M I got abused!

[walpurgis]

Something rare and beautiful has occurred here today.

Whenever I posted anything like this on P*M I got abused!

Well there you go!

Abuse is not tolerated here and we make every effort to ensure it does not occur.

[Marco]

Too right... And if you hang around long enough, Nick, which we hope you do, you'll soon find that out

Marco.