Differences between OFC and OCC copper?

[awkwardbydesign]

It isn't about how golden your ears are, it is about how transparent the rest of your gear is.

Err, no. And yes. It's strange, the denial that some people CAN hear better than others. There is no question our sight varies wildly, smell and taste too, but the idea that we can't hear something that someone else can! It's measureable too, just as sight is, but how many people have their hearing tested and have the audiogram showing by how much and at what frequencies? And I'm not talking about a vague "Yes your hearing's fine" for safety at work.
At the moment my stereo isn't transparent enough to show these differences, but I know someone who's is, and cable differences are clearly audible.

[Gordon Steadman]

Err, no. And yes. It's strange, the denial that some people CAN hear better than others. There is no question our sight varies wildly, smell and taste too, but the idea that we can't hear something that someone else can! It's measureable too, just as sight is, but how many people have their hearing tested and have the audiogram showing by how much and at what frequencies? And I'm not talking about a vague "Yes your hearing's fine" for safety at work.
At the moment my stereo isn't transparent enough to show these differences, but I know someone who's is, and cable differences are clearly audible.

Although I have been, am and probably always will be, a cable sceptic, I can hear some differences between cables - not a lot, a tiny fraction in fact. The scepticism comes from the assertion that one is 'better' than another. It is more than possible to design a cable to adjust the sound ( I am assured) but adjustment doesn't mean improvement. Over many years of listening, I have never heard any cable that made me enjoy the music more than a good reasonably large cross section lump of copper, be it solid or stranded.

Maybe one cable will suit one system better than others, who knows. That doesn't make it a better cable, merely that it suits that system.

I'm with the guys at Macintosh who insist that the only criteria is that the cross section is big enough to pass the signal properly. All the rest is foo. They are expert, I am not but I'll go with those whose opinion means something rather than those who just have an interest in selling stuff.

[Yomanze]

No audibly discernible difference except in the marketing. No manufacturer has ever provided any evidence except subjective pseudo-techno-babble that there can be any audible difference. It's a condutor. It conducts.

With all due respect LFD engage in what is widely considered 'heretical' thinking with wire purity as a key part of their design prioritites. The only difference between the LFD MK4 and American market-bound "MK4 Signature" is that the Signature has a ribbon cable on the positive speaker outputs, which pleased them compared to the MK4.

Does he need to provide scientific evidence or get his work pooh poohed by lack of scientific evidence? No, he simply dismisses the current state of the art in measurement techniques as providing the answer of what sounds good and what sounds bad.

[Reffc]

With all due respect LFD engage in what is widely considered 'heretical' thinking with wire purity as a key part of their design prioritites. The only difference between the LFD MK4 and American market-bound "MK4 Signature" is that the Signature has a ribbon cable on the positive speaker outputs, which pleased them compared to the MK4.

Does he need to provide scientific evidence or get his work pooh poohed by lack of scientific evidence? No, he simply dismisses the current state of the art in measurement techniques as providing the answer of what sounds good and what sounds bad.

With all due respect to you (and I don't remember offering any peer criticism whatsoever of your work, none at all), the issue of OFC V's OCC and audibility is entirely subjective, and all I was pointing out was that most claims to the contrary are usually rooted in marketing hype. We are dealing with science, not magic and pixie dust! There's little NOT understood about audio signal transfer so why must some continually add a mystique and magic around what is a fairly straigtforward issue? I don't ever remember stating anything about your work or any analogy to what you've stated above Where ICs are concerned, I would suggest that termination standards and plug quality matter more than the purity of the wire used for the signal. People are also quick to forget that signal transmission is from a relatively low output impedance into a relatively high input impedance, so ultimate conductivity is of less importance (shielding/grounding aside) than geometry and dielectric characteristics. That may be an inconvenient truth but its the truth nonetheless. I can't see any real argument to this but remain perfectly open minded enough to accept any proper peer reviewed evidence (surely the correct way for engineers and scientists to behave?) than subjective claim. Again, that in itself is no criticism of anything that anyone is working on as experimentation and product development is what technical development relies on. I'll bow out of this one now, as no good inevitably comes from cable debates! People are switched on enough to make their own minds up.

[awkwardbydesign]

I'll bow out of this one now, as no good inevitably comes from cable debates! People are switched on enough to make their own minds up.

Well put. I'll follow your example.

[Andrei]

... the issue of OFC V's OCC and audibility is entirely subjective

Paul, I have never seen an OFC -vs- OCC debate / issue. I would not have thought they were in some sort of competition.

[CageyH]

The reason I ask is a cable I have seen has one version in silver plated OFC, and another version in OCC.
The OCC is almost double the cost. It looks like a good quality cable, but with my system I doubt that it is revealing enough to highlight any benefit.

[Yomanze]

Hi Paul,

I hope you didn't think I am affiliated with LFD, just a happy owner & didn't mean to come across like I was attacking.

I do agree though, apart from photos of grain boundaries it's not possible to quantify why OCC cables may sound different than plated or OFC cables. There is indeed a lot of magic fairy dust in cable sales, but this is a different topic altogether.

I would contest that you need something peer-reviewed to form an opinion especially if you've already gone down the scientific and measurements route, yet still can't work out why something sounds different, but agree that termination, grounding, plug choice etc. are all more important real-world consideration.

Best regards,

Neil

With all due respect to you (and I don't remember offering any peer criticism whatsoever of your work, none at all), the issue of OFC V's OCC and audibility is entirely subjective, and all I was pointing out was that most claims to the contrary are usually rooted in marketing hype. We are dealing with science, not magic and pixie dust! There's little NOT understood about audio signal transfer so why must some continually add a mystique and magic around what is a fairly straigtforward issue? I don't ever remember stating anything about your work or any analogy to what you've stated above Where ICs are concerned, I would suggest that termination standards and plug quality matter more than the purity of the wire used for the signal. People are also quick to forget that signal transmission is from a relatively low output impedance into a relatively high input impedance, so ultimate conductivity is of less importance (shielding/grounding aside) than geometry and dielectric characteristics. That may be an inconvenient truth but its the truth nonetheless. I can't see any real argument to this but remain perfectly open minded enough to accept any proper peer reviewed evidence (surely the correct way for engineers and scientists to behave?) than subjective claim. Again, that in itself is no criticism of anything that anyone is working on as experimentation and product development is what technical development relies on. I'll bow out of this one now, as no good inevitably comes from cable debates! People are switched on enough to make their own minds up.

[Reffc]

Hi Paul,

I hope you didn't think I am affiliated with LFD, just a happy owner & didn't mean to come across like I was attacking.

I do agree though, apart from photos of grain boundaries it's not possible to quantify why OCC cables may sound different than plated or OFC cables. There is indeed a lot of magic fairy dust in cable sales, but this is a different topic altogether.

I would contest that you need something peer-reviewed to form an opinion especially if you've already gone down the scientific and measurements route, yet still can't work out why something sounds different, but agree that termination, grounding, plug choice etc. are all more important real-world consideration.

Best regards,

Neil

Ahhh...understood Neil, sorry for the confusion!

Yes, quite agree.

[Radford Revival]

The "diode lattice" thing has been proven to be untrue, I believe Doug Self demonstrated that at some point.