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Thread: Cabling, Timing and other factors in System Building.

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cawley View Post
    Adding blob of solder buggers it up and you end up with significant signal attentuation due to impedance mismatch.

    Only about 0.1dB at 100,000 times the limit of a young persons hearing. But when it meets the PCB inside? this must be a red herring surely?

    Regards

    Dave
    Don't know where you got your numbers from.

    Anyway, who knows. Personally I don't buy all this fancy cable debate, as I said. I was just trying to think of *possible* ways to justify it. I just buy decent Canare cable and connectors and that's more than good enough for me.

  2. #12
    Join Date: Nov 2008

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    Hi Chip

    Where did I get my numbers from? I can demonstrate it here a 2Ghz. RF was my life's work and I was a senior design engineer on RF at Philips for years. Then a retained consultant for the Inmarsat Cooperation. Trust me, a lump of solder on a BNC is no great shakes. If you are in the West Country drop and see me, we clearly have complementary skills!

    As you sort of suggested, there are a lot of "made up stories" on cable, worse still is that some of the perpetrators actually believe it!

    Regards

    Dave

  3. #13
    Join Date: Jan 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chippy_boy View Post
    100% agree. However, how detectable this is, is open to debate imho. There's a world of difference between double blind controlled tests and "I think that sounds a bit nicer".

    But putting that to one side for a moment and assuming we can all tell the difference, and in response to Dave's question, I don't know for sure why why the connector (or even the solder) makes any difference, but I would strongly suspect it's due to the impedance of the connector and therefore it's frequency rolloff characteristics.

    This is why you have to crimp bnc connectors to maintain the rating impedance. Adding blob of solder buggers it up and you end up with significant signal attentuation due to impedance mismatch.

    Phonos are not impedance matched in the same way, but it doesn't mean to say that their impedance does not have an effect on the transmission of the signal.

    But as I say, this is only a guess - I don't know for sure.
    There' a lot of twaddle being discussed on PFM over cable directionality and how a signal is propagated in an interconnect. A lot of confusion between the signal propagation velocity and the electron drift velocity. Even more confusion and nonsense discussed concerning the characteristic impedance of cables and connectors.

    The concept of characteristic impedence ceases to have any meaning for cable lengths much less than the wavelength/ (2*pi). Do the maths for audio frequencies!

    A 'blob' of solder makes very little difference to the performance of a BNC connector.

    Regards
    Barry
    (Formerly Principle Research Scientist at the GEC-Marconi Research Centre)
    Barry

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by barry.d.hunt View Post
    A 'blob' of solder makes very little difference to the performance of a BNC connector.

    Regards
    Barry
    (Formerly Principle Research Scientist at the GEC-Marconi Research Centre)
    I do agree. I am in the "cables is cables" camp - I was merely throwing a crust to those who passionately believe otherwise.

    I haven't done the sums (and I am far too rusty anyway) but I assume the blob of solder becomes more significant at MHz instead of KHz? There must be some reason why bnc's have to be crimped to maintain their impedance?

  5. #15
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    Hmm. I've heard lots of differences between cables. Some mess up the timing, some don't so much. Some mess up a particular part of the frequency range, some less so. None are perfect but the very best cables are the ones that impose the least of themselves on the music signal.

    I recently replaced my £400-a-pair Siltech SQ28s for two pairs of Mark Grant i/cs using Belden video cable costing £20 a pair.

    They are better in all respects - timing, dynamics, neutrality and bandwidth.

    Some Chord Epic Twin cable costing £40/m was also replaced with the Green Home Electronics Black Mamba stuff costing £85 for the complete set. The improvement in dynamics and timing was not subtle and I had money in the bank to cover the cost of a Tube Distinctiobs Linear PSU for my CD player.

    It isn't a case of spending huge amounts of money. It's a case of using your ears - they are the only point of reference of any relevence.

    Welcome to AOS.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Toy View Post
    Hmm. I've heard lots of differences between cables. Some mess up the timing, some don't so much. Some mess up a particular part of the frequency range, some less so. None are perfect but the very best cables are the ones that impose the least of themselves on the music signal. ..........
    The only difference I have heard when changing cables was when I changed my speaker 'cables' from, what was essentially, 2A 'bell wire' to 20A QED 79 strand wire. The difference? The volume control is now set lower for the same perceived loudness: not surprising as the new cables have one quarter of the loop resistance of the cables they replaced.

    I do change cables around, especially when I am trying out new items of equipment, however I have never noticed any change with the cables themselves. Maybe I can't hear these supposed differences, maybe they're not important to me - I don't know. Because of that, I would never charge fellow listeners with mendacity over their claims to hear a difference: it's their ears and it's their money. What does annoy me however, is the technical claptrap used by cable manufactures in support of their (usually expensive) products.

    Can you explain what you mean by "Some mess up timing"? I don't understand this timing (PRAT) thing that is often discussed, even though I have read various websites on the effect. Are there any recordings that demonstate this effect well?

    Do you hear the effects of cable directionality?

    Regards
    Barry

  7. #17
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    I guess by timing I mean phase coherence across the frequency range. Subjectively it is the difference between tapping your feet with ease or feeling your ankle grinding as you try to make sense of the rhythmic pattern and force you feet to tap.

    Phase issues occur when there are slight but perceptible time delays between different frequences as they reach your ears. The result initially is perhaps not to really notice followed by lack of involvement in the music and ultimately brainache. Phase issues also mess up the perception of dynamics, fundamental pitch and harmonic info as well as perception of the stereo image.

    Some cables really can screw up timing in this way.

    As for directionality I heard it clearly with an interconnect once but it may have been a question of shielding.

  8. #18
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    I have to say I don't hear much (if any) difference from different cables. But that's not to say others don't have more accute hearing than I do.

    I suppose one of the problems is also trying to describe any differences. We're inevitably in the realms of "one of the more woody cables" or "a distinctly tobaccoey sound". It's meaningless really. But that's not to say people don't hear (or think they hear) differences.

    Also there seems to be a distinct lack of hard evidence. If cable A sounds markedly different from cable B, it would be very very easy to set up some controlled double blind tests to see if there is any statistical basis (beyond random) to prove people can hear the difference. I haven't seen any published papers with such evidence.... which causes me to be very skeptical. I am not saying I think it's definitely nonsense, any more than I believe the existance of UFO's or ghosts is nonsense, but I'm afraid I put a lot of it in the same category.
    Last edited by Chippy_boy; 25-08-2009 at 20:42.

  9. #19
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    to add my 2p, I have very little experience of "fannying around" with different cables, though I can clearly tell the difference between a bit of bell wire and some QED 79 strand - I think mainly I am just a cloth ears, but I've never actually tried to actively A/B cables - something which I am hoping to do when Mike Homar's digital coax cable arrives, which will be interesting as I am sceptical (but open minded - can you be both?) that noughts and ones can really travel cattle class on one cable, first class via another. All part of the fun, though!
    Alex

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  10. #20
    Join Date: Mar 2009

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    i have been following this thread with interest. i am probably within the category of the relativly-less-informed on this forum, and i would say my hearing is less effective than some people on here too! i dont spend a lot on cables, most of mine are relativly inexpensive and usually qed as they are more widely available on the high street and i buy them when i need them!
    the only "sepcialist" cable i have spent money on is my nva ls1. i previously had qed silver aniversary cable airlocked. when i bought it i was suprised to hear no improvement over the previous lenghts of 10 year old chord carnival, i was infact unsure if it had in fact made things worse?! anyway i ended up buying the ls1 and it did in my veiw make a marked improvment! i could swear the music just sounded like it was flowing better... and my sceptical missis even said the same! sorry if i have missed the point,and this is just about interconnects
    i do find it refresing that people who obviously know more than me are saying that to a great extent "cables are cables" but surly there must be something in it all... or are we just all daft and overly suseptable to marketing?
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