Bargains on ebay? (Part 2)

[Beobloke]

The Deram will actually work into an MM input and sound fine. However, when loaded like this it is incredibly microphonic and, of course, works best into a proper ceramic input.

I'm another big fan of the Deram and, must admit, I'm quite tempted by this one...

[Marco]

Well, then... This:

The Deram will actually work into an MM input and sound fine.

...rather contradicts this:

There's actually variability in how they work .. some (many) are self-equalising so you don't need a phono stage, but attenuation is needed as the signal is far too high for modern inputs.

Other need EQ but the impedance is wrong and you still have the gain issue, will overload most phono stages.

So, who's right?? And what exactly does "will actually work into an MM input and sound fine" mean?

Will it actually work and sound any good, in the same way as if one were to use an ordinary MM cartridge? And how can it "sound fine" if it's liable to overload a phono stage??

I have to say that conflicting/confusing information like that, posted here, is something that really roasts my dome!

Marco.

[montesquieu]

Well, then... This:



...rather contradicts this:



So, who's right?? And what exactly does "will actually work into an MM input and sound fine" mean?

Will it actually work and sound any good, in the same way as if one were to use an ordinary MM cartridge? And how can it "sound fine" if it's liable to overload a phono stage??

I have to say that conflicting/confusing information like that, posted here, is something that really roasts my dome!

Marco.

WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN PHONO CARTRIDGES?

Most common cartridge of the 50's and 60's was the ceramic phono cartridge. Typically, these were supplied as turnover cartridges in early (non Hi-Fi) tube and solid state stereo systems, record changers and children's players. Some were higher quality versions such as the Decca Deram. Ceramic cartridges are high impedance and high output voltage (200-1200mV) devices. Another feature of this type of cartridge is that its response is amplitude based pick-up instead of velocity based like magnetic cartridges. This means that phono equalization is not required. A record player with this type of cartridge may be plugged directly into an high impedance (tube) input. Today, this type of cartridge is best used with old 78rpm records.

from http://www.lh-electric.net/tutorials/phono.html

[montesquieu]

WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN PHONO CARTRIDGES?

Most common cartridge of the 50's and 60's was the ceramic phono cartridge. Typically, these were supplied as turnover cartridges in early (non Hi-Fi) tube and solid state stereo systems, record changers and children's players. Some were higher quality versions such as the Decca Deram. Ceramic cartridges are high impedance and high output voltage (200-1200mV) devices. Another feature of this type of cartridge is that its response is amplitude based pick-up instead of velocity based like magnetic cartridges. This means that phono equalization is not required. A record player with this type of cartridge may be plugged directly into an high impedance (tube) input. Today, this type of cartridge is best used with old 78rpm records.

from http://www.lh-electric.net/tutorials/phono.html

I can't claim to be an expert - my hifi experience dates from long after ceramic cartridges were mostly gone (ie, the 70s) but I did try out an old Decca once and the gain made it unusable. Most people playing with them seem to use vintage preamps made to accept them, or build their own 'phono stage'/input buffer. Which makes sense to me.

[Marco]

I can't claim to be an expert - my hifi experience dates from long after ceramic cartridges were mostly gone (ie, the 70s) but I did try out an old Decca once and the gain made it unusable. Most people playing with them seem to use vintage preamps made to accept them, or build their own 'phono stage'/input buffer. Which makes sense to me.

Thanks for that, Tom. No offence, but I trust you can see where I'm coming from?

It would really piss me off if I bought, say, the Decca Deram listed (were it still available), after being told that it will "work fine', and then finding out that it overloaded my phono stage and/or sounded shit for some other reason...!!

That's why, we try our best to ensure that whatever information is published on AoS is factual and accurate.

Now, could you (or anyone else) please explain what is meant by this:

Another feature of this type of cartridge is that its response is amplitude based pick-up instead of velocity based like magnetic cartridges.

Translate please into 'layman's language'.

This means that phono equalization is not required.

Why?

A record player with this type of cartridge may be plugged directly into an high impedance (tube) input.

What exactly is one of those? Is it a phono input, line input or what? Where would I find such, for example, on my Croft preamp?

My hi-fi experience really only dates from the early 80s, so ceramic cartridges, and their efficacy when used with modern equipment, is something I know zero about. However, I wish to ensure that any information posted here about the matter is both accurate and verifiable, for the benefit of all those who may be interested in learning about the subject.

Marco.

[Beobloke]

So, who's right?? And what exactly does "will actually work into an MM input and sound fine" mean?

Will it actually work and sound any good, in the same way as if one were to use an ordinary MM cartridge? And how can it "sound fine" if it's liable to overload a phono stage??

I have to say that conflicting/confusing information like that, posted here, is something that really roasts my dome!

Marco.

Easy tiger...

Basically, ceramic cartridges are very sensitive to input loading. If you plug them into a normal MM input which loads them with 47kOhm they behave very differently to when they are plugged into a dedicated ceramic input, which would load them with 1-2MOhm.

With the lower resistive loading, many (but not all!) generally behave more like an MM as their bass rolls off and the RIAA equalisation restores this. Once the loading is up to the recommended Meg or two they have a flat response and thus require no equalisation (ceramic inputs have no RIAA equalisation). Their output will still obviously be higher than the average MM and whether this overloads the phono stage depends on the design of the stage.

It's an inexact science and does not work for all cartridges. However, I know you're a fan of using one's own ears and I can thus confirm through extensive personal experience that a Deram does work into an MM input and it did not overload mine. It sounded lovely but, as I mentioned, was very microphonic - as soon as I touched the armtube or fingerlift, there was a load of thumping through the loudspeakers! This disappeared when I used it through the dedicated Ceramic Cartridge preamplifier that I built years ago and it sounded even better. If you're really interested in the results I'm happy to dig my Deram out when I get five minutes and plug it into an MM input to remind myself of how it fares!

As an aside, if you fancy having a play with some ceramics, I can let you have the circuit of this preamplifier, which then plugs straight into a line input. Sadly, mine disappeared in a house move years ago and I've never got round to building another one.

[Marco]

Now *that* is much more useful, Adam, so thanks for the info

Basically, ceramic cartridges are very sensitive to input loading. If you plug them into a normal MM input which loads them with 47kOhm they behave very differently to when they are plugged into a dedicated ceramic input, which would load them with 1-2MOhm.

With the lower resistive loading, many (but not all!) generally behave more like an MM as their bass rolls off and the RIAA equalisation restores this. Once the loading is up to the recommended Meg or two they have a flat response and thus require no equalisation (ceramic inputs have no RIAA equalisation). Their output will still obviously be higher than the average MM and whether this overloads the phono stage depends on the design of the stage.

Gotcha now. Makes perfect sense.

It's an inexact science and does not work for all cartridges. However, I know you're a fan of using one's own ears and I can thus confirm through extensive personal experience that a Deram does work into an MM input and it did not overload mine. It sounded lovely but, as I mentioned, was very microphonic - as soon as I touched the armtube or fingerlift, there was a load of thumping through the loudspeakers!

Ok noted. The latter, however, isn't something I'd put up with, nor indeed the cartridge concerned being used anything other than optimally. That would be my only interpretation of 'sounds fine'! It's either right or it's not. In that respect, there is no 'grey area'.

This disappeared when I used it through the dedicated Ceramic Cartridge preamplifier that I built years ago and it sounded even better. If you're really interested in the results I'm happy to dig my Deram out when I get five minutes and plug it into an MM input to remind myself of how it fares!

Please do, as I'd find that most interesting. I'd certainly be in the market for such a cartridge, as long as I was able to use it, as it was intended to be used, and hear it properly, which brings us to this:

As an aside, if you fancy having a play with some ceramics, I can let you have the circuit of this preamplifier, which then plugs straight into a line input. Sadly, mine disappeared in a house move years ago and I've never got round to building another one.

Please do (either send it via PM, or publish it on the new thread that you start in Strokes of Genius, when reviewing your Deram, and please also post some pics). I'd simply ask someone to build said 'preamplifier' for me

Marco.

[Audioflyer]

There was a very good article published in Wireless world in July 1971 about "Ceramic Pickup Equalization".

I'm currently using a Phillips (GP390) low output ceramic cartridge into a diy mm phono stage with additional passive eq to boost the 1.5db drop off below 500Hz.

If all goes well I'm planning to bring it to Scalford Hall mounted on a Thorens TD160 Super with RB300 arm.

Sharif.

[TheArtOfSound]

What do you think of these Sennheiser HD-414

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cuffia-Sen...kAAOSwvUlWq3tV

[Ninanina]

Nice one... a member with the right name.... why didn't I think of that