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Thread: How does everyone listen to and evaluate hi-fi systems?

  1. #1
    Join Date: Jun 2010

    Location: Scotland

    Posts: 1,940
    I'm Tom.

    Default How does everyone listen to and evaluate hi-fi systems?

    It has long puzzled me how any two people can hear different things in a hi-fi system and how they come to a conclusion that it can sound "right" for them, yet sound completely "wrong" to another person.

    When we come to reading show reports, it has always baffled me how a collective of people can manage to demonstrate such diverse views of what they hear and most of them in all probability will conflict with what I myself have heard. Quite often I have walked into a demonstration where some individuals are engaged in the infamous "toe tapping" (Usually out of time too I might add LOL) which others will have facial expressions that look like they are draining the very last drop of juice out of a Lime segment, while some hold a facial expression rather befitting a corpse. I think the best observations to be made is when two or more people are walking out of the demonstration and listening to what comments they pass between them. This of course can range from "crap" to "stunning" and every permutation in between, or can be couched in other nondescript terms like "If I had the money . . . . . " or "I get better sound at home for less". I often wonder if someone else hears that kind of comment on the way *IN* to a demonstration can also inject some pre-judgement into the scenario. Interesting theory perhaps, but worth musing over at some point later in time. I have heard so may show systems with frightening price tags that have honky booming uncontrolled bass or shrieking treble, yet even so the amount of people that emerge from these rooms with a big on their faces could be they have a very low expectation of what real music SHOULD actually sound like.

    The recent Gotham GAC-1 cable thread on this illustrious forum has also elicited that same diverse pool of opinion. Some have stated that it is or might be a "system synergy" thing with the cable responding only in tandem with what it has been connected to, hence we get diametrically opposed opinions about it from that source of information. Some say that there is some sort of bias or hidden agenda going on that effectively kills a valid opinion straight off the starting blocks. More likely in that instance though is that some people have been swayed by another person's effusive comments about their experiences with the cable and have effectively "pre-conditioned" their minds into expecting a certain level of performance entirely based upon another person's enthusiasm and it has proved not to be so - with a resulting crash in perception probably greater than if nothing was said by anyone else beforehand. I say it's not pleasnat listening and don't give a hoot what anyone else thinks. As in the case of show reports, I believe that a good number of people will also have a favourite frequency band for their listening preferences, as in for example people that are almost fanatical about treble/midband/bass performance (delete as applicable), yet are rather non-plussed or less concerned how the other frequencies which are not their priority are behaving, while others are looking for a more generalised tonal character to the 'wall of sound' kind of thing which they perceive as a whole entity with little concern for the minutae. Maybe it's simply because people will eulogise about the negative aspects and ignore the positives?

    The biggest conundrum to me has always been how the objectivists claim to readily turn technical specifications into a predictable and consistent resulting sound. Never met any one of them yet that could tell the difference between a 30pf/metre and a 300pf/metre cable and they can only nod sagely when someone has told them which is which, but if it pleases them that one is ten times greater than the other then who am I to question that? They also claim that a good design off paper will translate into a good sounding component, but I have never known that to ever happen, except maybe for purely digital designs. Without exception, every design I know of personally has always been built as a prototype from drawings, then tuned afterwards by human ear for a better sound. That too very much depends upon whose ear is being used in that process. Or in some cases, how far back the accountants have dictated what the production costs should be pared to.

    So, then good AoS folks, how does yours truly listen?

    I prefer to do my listening in several stages and it matters not whether it is a personal purchase or if I have been asked to evaluate a component. If a new item is being delivered by whatever means, a simple quick functionality test to make sure whoever delivered it to me has not turned it into a twisted mangled mess. Lights on, no smoke, no rattles, nothing is falling off and it makes a noise of some description and it has passed test number one, then switched off and ignored. It also allows me to put away any euphoria I might have accumulated waiting for the doorbell to ring, the delight of opening the box or packaging, disposal or storage of said packaging, lugging components in and out of the rack and the commensurate connecting up, all of which will affect everyone's stress levels to some degree or other I reckon, even the most hardened of professional reviewers who are indeed no strangers to such carryings on. Next, usually twenty four hours later, I have to then take into account whether this component requires some burn in, burn out, or burn up, so this is the ideal time to commence that process, then add on my own system's warm up time for optimal performance. If I intend to do a "serious" evaluation, I make sure I am not hungry or too full either, neither hot nor cold body temperature wise, the phone is disconnected, plus the intake and outake of errrrrrm "fluids" is taken care of too. Sounds a bit like an athlete limbering up for an event, but I firmly believe that any potential source of stress is addressed accordingly for consistent listening results. To me, a blind ABX testing panel hasn't done any of this "limbering up" process beforehand, so that to me immediately puts the test at a grave disadvantage at best and invalidates it at worst, quite aside from the fact that the moment any notion of a "test" is mentioned the stress levels are already climbing steadily before even the first note is heard. It is bizarre anyway that an objective outcome is so reliant on so many subjective elements, the greatest of which is the variability of the human test participants. Go figure.

    First part of my listening then is a general impression of whether or not this newly introduced component pleases me or not. It doesn't have to be a reference of favourite recording either because that takes me into the realms of dissecting what I am hearing and I want to avoid that at this stage. I have plenty of boot sale and charity shop cheap music purchases lurking at the bottom of the rack that are ideal for this purpose, so it could be anything from Mrs Mills, to folk music, to Stravinsky and anything in between, so it gets put into the CD drawer and the play button hit. I simply listen for overall tonality and nothing else. It is very rare but not unknown for a component to stumble even at this early stage but there have been one or two over the years while have been quickly consigned to that popular auction website. Conversely too, there have only been three items that really did grab me instantly with and fell in love with from that first contact, all of which I kept and enjoyed for many years. If I do go to a show or have a demo at a dealer's premises, then truthfully this is far as i can realistically take an audition, because the system, room, choice of music, are all unfamiliar and it's a black and white kind of judgement whether I like what I hear or not - even if I do take my own favourite music along. I don't think I am alone in these situations, but I would dearly like to know where you all of you go after just listening to tonality alone in your own familiar surroundings.

    Next, out comes the reference recordings that I know forwards and backwards intimately over many years. You may not have heard or indeed like my choices, but they have key elements for me contained within them that I know so well, rather than select an assault course of tortuous music that only the finest of systems can jump over, do battle with and conquer. I then split the listening into three sections, focussing on treble, mid and bass registers, mostly playing a track three times concentrating each time on just one of those three elements and completely ignoring the other two for the moment. I can do all three simultaneously of course with music I know very well, because the cues I am listening out for will arrive at a particular time so I can switch back and forth as necessary in plenty of time. Funnily enough, I have taught this listening method to several people over the years and they were more than content prior to that with listening to a transister radio and music in the car, but now they are very critical listeners with full blown hi-fi systems of their own. I have created monsters!

    So then, kindly put up your own thoughts on how you personally evaluate a new component and/or how you do your everyday general listening sesh.

  2. #2
    Join Date: May 2009

    Location: gone away

    Posts: 4,870
    I'm joe.

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    I don't find it in the least bit surprising that people have different views about the same components; after all, we like different types of music, have different hearing ability, different brains, different size and shape rooms, different systems, etc. For example, the 'wonder cable' on here a few years back was the single worst cable I've ever used. Does that make its many supporters 'wrong', or does it make me deaf, or someone with an agenda? Of course not. Divergence of opinion is only to be expected given the variables mentioned above. That's why I'm cautious about reviewing things; what works for me may not work for someone else, and I'm not in favour of trying to 'convert' people to my point of view, any more than I want everyone to like the same music as me (though if they dislike the Beatles, their opinions re anything else are clearly valueless).

    In terms of how I listen to/evaluate equipment, I have several recordings that I know and like, and tend to use these either when at a dealer demonstration or when listening to something on home trial, rather than depending on whatever the dealer happens to have. Generally speaking, that's enough to eliminate obvious mismatches as the basis for a like/don't like, or a buy/don't buy decision. I'm of the view that there are few 'bad' components out there, just components that work well in some contexts and less well in others. Of course price comes into it as well, and expectations should be higher one ascends the price ladder, but paradoxically, some very expensive equipment requires more care in matching and installation than cheap and cheerful stuff.

    For general listening, I just put some music on and listen to it. I've found as I've got older that I can't multi-task like I used to, so tend not to read or anything else, as I either can't follow what I'm reading, or don't properly listen to the music; the kitchen micro-system is all I use for 'background' listening. Upstairs I tend to use the Stax headphones rather than the speakers, because the room has several 'issues' that would be difficult and costly to resolve, and this is a more 'immersive' experience than listening via speakers.

  3. #3
    Join Date: Apr 2011

    Location: Surrey

    Posts: 4,162
    I'm Mike.

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    I use certain tracks I know well

    Play on current system
    Play with new bits
    All being well new bits beat old bits.
    Buy new bits
    and eventually sell old bits - Must sell more old kit !

    More difficult when not clear cut
    More listening to more tracks.
    If just 'different', not that common I choose which I prefer
    Price can influence that decision of course
    TAD CD / DAC / Pre, Technics 1210, MCRU PSU, Mike New Bearing & Platter, Stillpoints LP1 weight, Speedy Steve Ebony armboard, Fidelity Research FR64FX arm, Ortofon SPU. Aurorasound VIDA Phono Pre Amp, TAD Power Amp, TAD E1 speakers. Coherent RTZ 3 Grounding box, Coherent grounding cables, Creaktiv racks. Coherent Mains Cables. SR Blue Fuse. Interconnects : Coherent and Yannis 223.5 Connect Litz. Coherent speaker cable. Audio Magic Transcendence Conditioner. Coherent mains socket. Mains Filters : , PS Audio Harvesters, Russ Andrews Purifiers, Tacima, Vertex. Black Ravioli and RDC supports. Electric Beach S1NX platforms for TAD CD and Technics. Ferrite chokes everywhere except the above. Ears, brain

    Mike

  4. #4
    Join Date: Oct 2011

    Location: Charente, France

    Posts: 3,531
    I'm Nodrog.

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    I make stringed musical instruments and repair strings, brass and woodwind. I have to play them to see how they sound.

    Twenty years ago, I started recording some of them and played them back on the hi-fi. Once I had a system that sounded the same, I stopped bothering with the equipment and just listened to the music.

  5. #5
    Join Date: Dec 2011

    Location: South downs

    Posts: 3,477
    I'm James.

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    Cant argue with that Gordon !

    For someone with such objective views my evaluations are very subjective... I judge purely on the enjoyment I get from the music which is subject to mood/weather/time of day so admittedly very flawed but ultimately, it works [for me ]

  6. #6
    Join Date: Oct 2011

    Location: Charente, France

    Posts: 3,531
    I'm Nodrog.

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    Quote Originally Posted by istari_knight View Post
    I judge purely on the enjoyment I get from the music which is subject to mood/weather/time of day so admittedly very flawed but ultimately, it works [for me ]

    Can't really argue with that now can you?

    It is clear that some enjoy what I would call a very skewed version of reality but there have been 'discussions' about the nature of reality too.

  7. #7
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,933
    I'm Martin.

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    If I am trying something new I will set it up at the weekend but I won't have a serious listen to it until in the week after work since I am then coming to it clear-headed and sober after a day at the office and at least 18 hours since I last heard any recorded music be it from a TV, radio or a system.

    I can't stand listening to the same thing repeteadly or listening to something I am not in the mood for so I will just stick on whatever I feel like hearing. It is likely to be something I am pretty familiar with anyway. I always use CD for evaluating kit (unless it is vinyl related, obviously) since they are more consistent, there are a lot less variables involved.

    Once the music is playing I will smoke and drink my beer and not try to concentrate on anything specific, I'll just see how it grabs me. Music works on the physical and emotional levels, not the intellectual so I don't see any point in thinking about what I am hearing using the internal dialogue. Usually it does not take long before there is one of the following outcomes:

    1) it's not grabbing me, I'm bored, I'm losing interest, I'm wondering what's on the telly
    2) I'm enjoying the music but not anymore than I was prior to introducing the new item
    3) I'm really, noticebaly enjoying things more with the new item than I was previously

    Only once I have had one of the three reactions then I might try to intelluctualise it and start thinking about what it is specifically that has heightened ot decreased my enjoyment and then try to relate this to an objective, technical perspective in the hope of drawing wider conclusions/theories about how things work together and what is going on. Sometimes that theorising helps me make future decisions although mostly its a waste of time.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  8. #8
    Join Date: Dec 2011

    Location: South downs

    Posts: 3,477
    I'm James.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    ...although mostly its a waste of time.
    Amen to that.

    FWIW I've always found "gut instinct" to be right. I'll know within 10 minutes if I straight like/dislike something and that feeling 9/10 bares out in the long run... Its happened a couple of times where I've not been keen on a new addition, its grown on me & then I hate it all of a sudden

  9. #9
    Join Date: Aug 2011

    Location: Nottingham

    Posts: 575
    I'm Ian.

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    I don't really evaluate. I look to get utterly lost in the music when I'm on my own with my eyes closed and in the sweet spot. I recall seeing a wonderful documentary on the web about Greek Audiophiles where a chap quoted something along the lines of 'we talk about wanting the speakers to disappear, but really it's us that want to disappear into the music'. More the sentiment than a word for word quote, but that's what I want. And a 3D soundstage that feels like I can reach out and touch the music.

    As you'll guess I'm not an evaluation kind of chap, more the spirit of the sound for me. I enjoyed your post Frank which you clearly put a great deal of thought into. Cheers, Ian.

  10. #10
    Join Date: Apr 2008

    Location: Warrington

    Posts: 3,451
    I'm Neil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by istari_knight View Post
    Amen to that.

    FWIW I've always found "gut instinct" to be right. I'll know within 10 minutes if I straight like/dislike something and that feeling 9/10 bares out in the long run... Its happened a couple of times where I've not been keen on a new addition, its grown on me & then I hate it all of a sudden
    Totally agree. I used to do a lot of ABX testing (finding that I did prefer lossless to 320kbps & that speaker cables do make a difference), long sessions comparing components etc. and learned that auditory memory just isn't cut out for it, and the added 'stress' of comparison draws you away from how you feel (and listen) when you've just got the tunes on.

    These days I don't change anything as it's that gut reaction from a component change after long-term listening with the previous setup that reveals the most to me. I got totally lost when I tried a passive pre and a bi-amped setup vs. my active pre & single amp. With associated interconnect & speaker cable changes it was too much!

    So now I plug one thing at a time, put on familiar tracks & quickly feel whether it's more natural or not. Some components add a false sense of "detail" that is sympathetic to some systems and can have wow factor on first listen, but it's really about long-term listening, and the changes when you change something small, as the most accurate IMHO test of what you like. Quick component switches etc. quickly overwhelm our auditory memory capabilities (when do we do that sort of stuff in nature?!) and formal ABX tests are ridiculous compared to how I've done them, which is at home with familiar kit and music.

    I particularly listen to piano, decays, leading edge, timbre, harmonics and female vocals in terms of "critical listening", get an emotional foot-tapping response when not, and have have never had a problem with things like bass overhang in my systems.
    Mana Acoustics Racks / Bright Star IsoNodes Decoupling >> Allo DigiOne Player >> Pedja Rogic's Audial Model S DAC + Pioneer PL-71 turntable / Vista Audio phono-1 mk II / Denon PCL-5 headshell / Reson Reca >> LFD DLS >> LFD PA2M (SE) >> Royd RR3s.

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