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Thread: How Wide?

  1. #11
    Join Date: Mar 2008

    Location: Aylesbury

    Posts: 307
    I'm Philip.

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    I agree with loosing the center speaker, I ditched mine years ago.
    Main Sys. N.A.S DAIS; 12" Ace Space , Benz Micro Wood SL, Timesteep T-01MC, Quad Platinum DMP, Quad Platinum Pre, FM4,Quad Platinum Stereo, Quad ESL 63, PRC4 RCM, Chord XLR, Mark Grant G1000HD, Black Mamba's. Stax SRM600 SR507
    AVCambridge audio Blu-ray player, Pioneer SC-LX 57 Front 2 channels switched into Quad 606 Powering the ESL63s. Rear powering Celestion Speakers, LFE 2 cheap subwoffers.
    Man-cave Sys. A. GL75, RB300, ZYX R100H, Rega Planer 3, RB200, Rega Carbon Elys II,Quad 34, 606, Tangent RS4.
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  2. #12
    Join Date: Nov 2008

    Location: North Down /Northern Ireland/ UK

    Posts: 19,484
    I'm Neil.

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    70% of the sound comes from the centre, that is the way most movies are made, the way the sound technicians design the sound, which in many cases is an integral part of the movie, ditch the centre at your own potential loss.

    And definitely do not place the speakers as far apart as Macca is suggesting (IMHO), unless your screen is massive. It just won't work the way movie sound is designed, particularly if the movies are made to the THX spec.


    Regards Neil
    Last edited by Spectral Morn; 08-05-2014 at 20:39.

  3. #13
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,784
    I'm Martin.

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    You are not losing that seventy percent though it is simply transferred to the front left and right speakers which are ususlly far more capable than the centre. THX is imo mostly a marketing exercise and ime a lot of the kit that is sold as THX certified is not up to delivering the reference spl without distortion in both amp and speakers. The centre is particularly vulnerable to this as it is required to do so much.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  4. #14
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: N E Kent

    Posts: 51,624
    I'm Geoff.

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    To my ears, centre speakers do dreadful things to stereo imaging.
    It is impossible for anything digital to sound analogue, because it isn't analogue!

  5. #15
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,784
    I'm Martin.

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    I found that I had to turn the centre feed up to try to hear dialogue but then the centre starts to overload plus becomes too noticeable and the system was playing too loud on peaks - There are a lot of dynamics in a good soundtrack especially with action films and you end up turning the volume up to hear quiet passages then turning it down again when things get going. No-one wants to be doing that when you are trying to immerse yourself in the film. So I swapped in large-ish studio desk monitors for left and right and dialled out the centre and that made a huge difference to intelligibility of dialogue and no need to re-master the soundtrack as you go along either. I'd recommend at least trying this approach if you have the same issues I did.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  6. #16
    Join Date: Sep 2010

    Location: Macclesfield, UK

    Posts: 360
    I'm Jason.

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    So I'm not necessarily disagreeing with any of the different approaches expressed here, but my experiences led me down the path of getting a high end centre speaker (almost as high end as my main L/R speakers) precisely for the reasons Neil says about 70% of the sound being designed for the centre. I find dialogue exceptionally clear and during sections when there is dialogue from the centre and music from the L/R, there is a satisfying layering of sound that isn't quite as good for me with just L/R.

    As for positioning of L/R, I'm in the camp of placing them just at the edges of the screen boundary. When for example there's a very directional sound, like a loud knock on the door that is on the left of the screen, if the speaker is too far away from the left boundary it just doesn't work and breaks the spell of the movie.

    Also, when we talk about rear speakers in this thread, are we really talking about rear or surround speakers?
    Jason™

    Built by Hand, Tuned by Life

  7. #17
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: N E Kent

    Posts: 51,624
    I'm Geoff.

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    Hmm. As far as I can see if you use a centre speaker, you might as well listen to a mono system. The practice undermines the purpose of stereo.
    It is impossible for anything digital to sound analogue, because it isn't analogue!

  8. #18
    Join Date: Sep 2010

    Location: Macclesfield, UK

    Posts: 360
    I'm Jason.

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    Geoff, it depends on what material we are talking about.

    If it's a movie that has dialogue engineered to come from the centre speaker, then yes it's mono, just as it was intended.
    In modern movies the soundtrack usually comes from the L/R speakers and/or sometimes the surround speakers and this is in stereo / quad, which is again as intended.

    If it's a stereo music video and for whatever reason the music is coming from the centre speaker as well, then I agree this is a bad thing and should be disconnected.

    I'm all about recreating the sound of a movie (or music video) as was intended by the director and sound engineers that made it.
    In the same way I found that for movies a sub (or two) always does a better job of the LFE channel than any L/R speakers. Mine go down to 24hz but the subs are in a different league for movie effects.
    Jason™

    Built by Hand, Tuned by Life

  9. #19
    Join Date: Aug 2008

    Location: London

    Posts: 2,411
    I'm Nat-andthat'swhyIdrink.

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    But are the sound engineers making the 5.1 track as they want to hear it as a film or in order to fulfill common 5.1 practice which everyone expects, including a relatively mono sound? Personally I think 5.1 etc is a conceptual attempt to make your living room like a cinema but that it isn't necessarily concerned with bringing realism to the average, especially british, home with relatively small screens.

    I would have thought that you'd want speech to move around the screen as per stereo rather than always biased to the centre of the screen. If you have a wide screen and someone speaks from near the edge of the picture, won't a centre speaker ruin the feel of the film by making the sound come from the centre?

    As I say, when I watch movies at home (on 2 channel) I prefer to have the audio as ideal as possible (and therefore believable, wide stereo) rather than re-enforcing and bringing attention to the fact that you're just watching it on a small screen in front of you. In other words the sound is immersive and realistic whilst you just have to put up with the screen until panaoramic displays become commonplace at home - at least live to the fullest for one of the senses.

    I'm not really into A/V so please ignore me if you like! I'm just curious to the differences between following the accepted methods and standards and doing what sounds more immersive.

  10. #20
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,784
    I'm Martin.

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    Well maybe I shouldn't talk since my own 4.1 system isn't really set up ideally since the TV is off centre with one of the front speakers directly above it - I could remedy that but it would mean shifting things around a little and I have never found it a distraction, I just fed a little more signal to the speaker that is further away. Best practice is not the same in A/V as it is for 2 channel music since we have moving pictures that take up most of our brain's processing, a fact that tends to get glossed over by the salesmen. If you can watch a black and white film and forget you are watching in black and white, or a subtitled film in which you forget you are reading subtitles it is unlikely that you will become conscious of the fact that the sound is not quite a 360 degree wrap around. Not being able to hear dialogue clearly, on the other hand, is an immediate and noticeable distraction. As Jason says you can remedy that with a very high quality centre but have at least £1500 to spend! Far cheaper to dump it altogether.In any case we do not need a centre channel for music so I don't really see the requirement to have one for a film soundtrack. The fact that they are so expensive compared to the other speakers in the set up has always given me pause for thought - it is just one box with 2 bass mids wired in parallel plus a tweeter so why are they priced at 75% of the stereo pair? Seems to me to be an attempt to sell an additional high profit item that is not really necessary. Like a dealer selling a full system stereo set up and making all his profit from the cables he recommends you need to 'get the best from it'. A rear centre is far more useful but you rarely see them included in a typical package probably because 90% of people have no room for it since their listening position is against the back wall anyway.

    With regard to distance of the front L/R from the screen a pal of mine has a relatively expensive B&W/Onkyo 7.2 THX set up that was professionally installed and the installers wanted the front L/R as far apart as was possible in the room - that's about 13' wide - with a 60 inch screen. I've never heard of the idea that the speakers should be close to the screen boundary - is that a THX requirement?
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

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