How good is a fully upgraded Technics SL-1210mk2 compared to other high end TT?

[Marco]

This was exactly my experience when switching to the resomat. Albeit on a standard platter. Have you used the resomat Marco?

Hi Adam,

Yup, it's really good, and does all the things you're relating to. It was my favourite mat before I discovered the Nagaoka. On my T/T, the Nagaoka moves that effect on further still, but at some cost (approximately five times that of the Resomat).

VFM/SPPV wise, the Resomat has it, but for those seeking to eke out that last few percent of performance from their T/Ts, certainly with an ETP platter in the equation, I'd thoroughly recommend the Naga - if you can still find one!

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

The principle behind the Nagaoka crystal mat is that energy which is normally wasted, by being sunk into the mat (acting as a damper), is instead retained within the cantilever/generator assembly of the cartridge, thus otherwise lost musical information is retained, producing a clearer, more open and much more detailed sound.

Marco.

Yes. As I pointed out to Cagey - which mat/platter will work well depend on the design of the turntable as a whole, and what you are trying to do with the problem "waste" energy from the stylus's friction with the record. In a perfect situation there would be no waste energy to do anything with - all of the kinetic energy at the stylus would be perfectly transduced to electrical energy. No problem resonances and no waste! But it aint ever perfect.

Now - the man what really knows is on holiday this week, with a big "do not disturb" sign on the door. However, I am pretty sure he would baulk a bit at that description. Certainly damping (which controls the resonances) is not his favourite solution (see also my comments about arms, and platter rigidity). Damping, in addition to controlling resonances and "spikes" tends to dull and muddy the sound as you describe. (Hence FXR with its +-3db resonance plots and no damping - smooth detailed "live" sound). But if you can't have no waste energy, next best is usually to channel it away "neutrally". Reflecting back just shoves it into the arm - and since there is only one arm I know of which can handle that energy "nicely" - FXR/FX3/FX1200 with resonances controlled for 10Hz to 20Khz +-3db, then reflecting the energy up into the arm just amplifies the arm resonance problems. Of course, you can use damping and decoupling in the arm, but that makes for a muddy sound and loss of detail...

I mentioned to Cagey, that in theory at least there are other ways to skin the cat from the original Pink Triangle solution - and feeding the energy back evenly is that other way to skin the cat - but it has the problems I outlined above. The Pink Triangle solution was to channel it away "neutrally" (all frequencies the same). This was achieved by a thick acrylic platter. The acrylic (like delron) is a close impedance match to vinyl, so used without a mat, you effectively have a VERY VERY thick record. In the PT's case the energy which is in that thick record passes via a very high quality bearing into a sub-chassis which disperses it as heat (mostly). A thin acrylic mat doesn't help. Its an impedance match with the record, but a bad impedance match to the platter. The acrylic platter also benefitted from being light weight - which was essential to work with the small tip inverted bearing, essential for stability and good energy transfer. However, very light platter mass is less critical with a more conventional bearing design like spin (and current funk bearings)

The weakness of the acrylic platter is that its relative softness (lack of rigidity) effectively adds that unwanted damping element again. Achromat was the solution to a mat instead of a thick platter. Achromat material gives a good impedance match, but instead of channelling the energy away to a sub-chassis to disperse it, it is dispersed by the tiny bubbles in the mat - again - mostly as heat. So once you have achromat the question is how can you supply the most rigid and non-resonant undamped platter to support it? Answer -strata. Again, coming back to those "can I use it with another mat" questions. That misses the point. The point is not "which mat should I use with strata". The question is "which platter should I use to optimise achromat"?

But - whilst not challenging your right to enjoy what you hear from your Nagoaka mat - it seems a bit arse about face with regard to which bit should be rigid and non-resonant, and which bit should grip and interface with the LP. Evidently it works well for you

For the record though - energy cannot be retained in the cantilever or (anywhere else for that matter). It may be transferred to them efficiently, but it won't be retained in them. And if it is transferred to the cantilever, and not dispersed as some other energy form (heat or acoustic being the 2 prime candidates) it is going to pass into the arm tube. How much that is a good thing will depend on the arm tube and cantilever construction. But whilst I know you will be confident the ones you use will be matched and splendid for the job - that is not obvious for most cantilevers and arm tubes. Think about it. Why do you want to feed energy into a cantilever? its just going to be noise - which will only have a neutral effect on the sound if any materials it passes to respond evenly across the audio frequency spectrum to that energy input (ie have no significant resonance peaks)

(The music to be "retained in the cartridge coils" is from the wiggling of the cantilever by the grooves of the record. The energy you are talking about - the waste energy "needle talk" is a problem which potentially will cause the stylus wiggling to be imperfectly reflected in the cartridge coils. Don't muddle your energies! No mat or platter is going to influence (directly) the primary energy transferred to the cartridge coils - that is a function of the record moving the stylus tip back and forth - so no chance of it being "sucked up" by damping)

But, at the risk of repeating myself in what I appreciate is not the clearest post - the issue is controlling the waste energy. Doing so with damping is bad. Just reflecting it up to the arm via the cantilever, is only going to work if the arm can handle it - without damping/decoupling. Most can't .

But if it works for you - enjoy it.

[Marco]

Lol - what are you like?

But if it works for you - enjoy it.

It certainly does, on my T/T and my system, and (as good as it was) better than the Achromat did. These things are obviously heavily turntable and system dependent.

If I compared the MKI Funk platter/bonded Achromat combo, which I used before, with the MN ETP/Nagaoka, I'd say the latter was about 15-20% better overall, in any sonic or musical area you care to mention.

Obviously, however, I've not tried the Strata

Marco.

[CageyH]

Or the Spin.
As said before, before I decide on which platter I will use, I really need to hear the ETP.
I know how good Spin/Strata is now I have resolved my set up issue.

It would be really interesting to hear the Nagaoka mat on a Mk1 Funk platter too.
I just feel that it seems pointless to change the platter material slightly, if you cover it up, but what do I know.

[Marco]

When I first got the ETP I used it to good effect, sans mat. Then I tried a Resomat, which was better, and after that the Nagaoka crystal mat, which was better still.

For me, nothing in hi-fi is ever written in stone, so experimenting is the order of the day, which is when you often discover some superb combinations of things that 'just work'. The Nagaoka/ETP, on my T/T, is one such combination

Marco.

[Mike_New]

I have just dialed into the web pages of Nagaoka and it seems that they are out-of-stock.
Further down the page they seem to indiacte that they are not making any more.

[CageyH]

I am wondering what real difference there would be between the ETP and Mk1 Funk platters fitted with the crystal mat. I bet it is very small.

[Marco]

It is a discontinued product, Mike, but some outlets have small stocks remaining, for example Juno Records, here on ebay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/11163...f14=108&ff19=0

And Divine Audio have one left, at a VERY good price: https://www.divineaudio.co.uk/nagaok...tsMaArhC8P8HAQ

As no more are being produced by Nagaoka, when remaining stocks are gone, they're gone, which is why when Paul was selling them a while back, I snapped one up! The Nagaoka is truly one of the great NOS T/T products ever made, from the heyday of high-end audio

Not recommended, however, for belt-drive T/Ts with puny little motor units, as the mat weighs 1kg!

Marco.

[Marco]

I am wondering what real difference there would be between the ETP and Mk1 Funk platters fitted with the crystal mat. I bet it is very small.

Dunno, Kev. That's not one I've tried. Certainly the difference between a MKI Funk platter (with bonded Achromat), and an ETP, used 'au naturel', on my T/T, was pretty significant. How much the Nagaoka mat would level the playing field, in that respect, remains to be seen, should anyone be in the position to try it.

Marco.

[CageyH]

£100 for a mat seems a bit steep if I don't like it. Especially if I don't end up keeping the Mk1 platter.