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Thread: Car (or bike) Chat!

  1. #5551
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 11,181
    I'm Adrian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dave2010 View Post
    I have tried to charge up our EVs during the day from the solar panels. The panel system is rated at around 4kW, but of course the actual output depends on the quality of the sunlight. We are on Octopus - and usually charge up in the cheap period - set to 9.30pm to 1.30am - which works out at around £2.80 (2 sessions over 2 nights = 8 hours) for a nearly full charge on a Tesla M3. Zoe can be done in less time - probably costs about £2 for a full charge. We often run the dishwasher and washing machine during the day - when the sun is bright - and I'm told this makes virtually no impact on the electricity bill - based on the data returned from Octopus. However when I tried to charge the Tesla M3 up using the slowest charger, the impact on the bill was noticeable - not huge - but noticeable., and we decided it is better to revert to charging overnight with the 5p per kWh tarriff.

    If there were ways to only charge up cars (or anything else - use immersion heaters etc.) which would work reliably, and adjust the load to the demand depending on the sunlight, that would be good. However good devices which do this don't seem to be available. Of course also, if eveyone fitted any devices like that, companies which to some extent may rely on electricity being fed back into the grid would adjust their rates.

    One other comment - we try not to push the battery levels in the cars to over 80% too often, in order to maintain the battery life. Sometimes we go for broke - but mostly try to keep in the range 20/30 to 70/80 which arguably may be the best compromise to keep batteries in order.
    Yesterday morning put in 13kwh into Tesla M3 all off the Solar took about 2h 50min, we have a realistic max PV capability of 7kwh.

    Our peak generation for one cloudless day is 63kwh, but at this time of year it’s usually around 40-45kwh.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs:
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    Digital:-
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    RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi
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    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

  2. #5552
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 11,181
    I'm Adrian.

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    Seems if prices keep rising at this rate, this is what we can expect to see by the end of the year, I have done some comparisons below so you can get a clear picture of what this actually means in costs. The possible future costs for 10K mile per year you can easily use to work out what you family may need to spend based on your total annual milage, so if you have two petrol cars and do 15K miles a year multiply the 10k cost by 1.5

    According to Government stats:

    03 Jan 2022 the average pump price of Unleaded Petrol was £1.4504/gall and Diesel £1.4885
    27 Jun 2022 the average pump price of Unleaded Petrol was £1.9093/gall and Diesel £1.9893

    This is a percentage rise over 6 months for petrol 32% and diesel 34% If that continues till the end of this year then we can expect to see petrol to rise to £2.5204/L and Diesel to £2.6259 This would make the average price for gallon of E10 unleaded £11.4421 and Diesel £11.9215

    Yes I know it sounds unbelievable but this is what some Fuel analysts in the market are strongly forecasting. For and average family car a tank is abut 65L and most people fill up with about 10L left in it, so a 55L fill up of petrol would cost £138.62 and for Diesel £144.42

    Assuming an average 40mpg for petrol this is 22p/mile and for 60mpg diesel 15p/mile, current costs
    Rising to petrol 29p/mile and for 60mpg diesel 20p/mile

    In comparison an EV even at 35p/kwh is 8.75p/mile (assuming 4 miles/kwh) - 39% the cost of petrol, and even if base electric prices rise in October to 50p/kwh then is will be 12.5p/mile - 43% the cost of petrol then.

    A 10K miles annual usage, EV is £875, and petrol £2200 at current prices, at inflated rates £1250 for the EV and £2900 for petrol.

    I have not taken into account that you can get electricity for EV charging at home at off peak rates at around 7.5p/kwh, so even if re-charging at home for 66% at this rate and 34% at public chargers you would spend £123.75 (6600miles/4mile/kwh*£0.075/kwh) and £433.50 (3400miles/4mile/kwh*£0.51/kwh) = £557.25 in total for the year.

    I hope this gives some insight and helps you who are thinking about how to manage this.
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs:
    Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm
    Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges
    Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:-
    Audiolab 8300CDQ CDP/DAC/pre-amp
    RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi
    Buffalo NAS Drive

    Amplification:-
    AudioValve Sunilda phono stage,
    Krell KSA-80 power amp

    Output:
    Wilson Benesch Vector speakers
    KLH Ultimate One Headphones

    Cables:
    Furutech AG-12-R4 High Performance Phono Cable
    QED Genesis Silver Spiral speaker leads, & links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

  3. #5553
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: W Lothian

    Posts: 89,855
    I'm Grant.

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    The retailers are ripping the motorist off and have been for ages. Wholesle prices have been droppig for ages yet pries go up daily. Govt does nothing. What a surprise
    Last edited by struth; 30-06-2022 at 09:40.
    Regards,
    Grant .... ؠ ......Don't be such a big girl's blouse

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: democracy simply-doesn't-work
    .... ..... ...... ...... ................... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
    OPPO BDP-103D - PANASONIC UB450 - PANASONIC 4K ULTRA HD - AVANTREE LR BLUETOOTH - NURAPHONE' BOSE, CAMBRIDGE & SONY HEADPHONES - 2*ZBOOK'- ROON - MULTI HDD'S -

    **I’ve studied deeply in the philosophies and religions, but cheerfulness kept breaking through**

    **Hate makes you impotent, Love makes you crazy. Somewhere in the middle you can survive.**

    “Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power. This is the supreme test. It is the glory of Lincoln that, having almost absolute power, he never abused it, except on the side of mercy.”

    “You see these dictators on their pedestals, surrounded by the bayonets of their soldiers and the truncheons of their police ... yet in their hearts there is unspoken fear. They are afraid of words and thoughts: words spoken abroad, thoughts stirring at home -- all the more powerful because forbidden -- terrify them. A little mouse of thought appears in the room, and even the mightiest potentates are thrown into panic.”

    Then I saw it. I saw a mum who would die for her son. A man who would kill for his wife. A boy, angry and alone. Laid out in front of him, the bad path. I saw it. And the path was a circle. Round and round. So I changed it.

    “There's a war out there, old friend. A world war. And it's not about who's got the most bullets. It's about who controls the information. What we see and hear, how we work, what we think... it's all about the information!”

    ***SMILE, BE HAPPY***

  4. #5554
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 11,181
    I'm Adrian.

    Default

    2023 and if all goes to plan and you should be able to get one of these, and it charges from Solar PV and for EU25K

    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs:
    Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm
    Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges
    Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:-
    Audiolab 8300CDQ CDP/DAC/pre-amp
    RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi
    Buffalo NAS Drive

    Amplification:-
    AudioValve Sunilda phono stage,
    Krell KSA-80 power amp

    Output:
    Wilson Benesch Vector speakers
    KLH Ultimate One Headphones

    Cables:
    Furutech AG-12-R4 High Performance Phono Cable
    QED Genesis Silver Spiral speaker leads, & links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

  5. #5555
    Join Date: May 2012

    Location: Toulouse, France

    Posts: 5,817
    I'm Kevin.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AJSki2fly View Post


    Seems if prices keep rising at this rate, this is what we can expect to see by the end of the year, I have done some comparisons below so you can get a clear picture of what this actually means in costs. The possible future costs for 10K mile per year you can easily use to work out what you family may need to spend based on your total annual milage, so if you have two petrol cars and do 15K miles a year multiply the 10k cost by 1.5

    According to Government stats:

    03 Jan 2022 the average pump price of Unleaded Petrol was £1.4504/gall and Diesel £1.4885
    27 Jun 2022 the average pump price of Unleaded Petrol was £1.9093/gall and Diesel £1.9893

    This is a percentage rise over 6 months for petrol 32% and diesel 34% If that continues till the end of this year then we can expect to see petrol to rise to £2.5204/L and Diesel to £2.6259 This would make the average price for gallon of E10 unleaded £11.4421 and Diesel £11.9215

    Yes I know it sounds unbelievable but this is what some Fuel analysts in the market are strongly forecasting. For and average family car a tank is abut 65L and most people fill up with about 10L left in it, so a 55L fill up of petrol would cost £138.62 and for Diesel £144.42

    Assuming an average 40mpg for petrol this is 22p/mile and for 60mpg diesel 15p/mile, current costs
    Rising to petrol 29p/mile and for 60mpg diesel 20p/mile

    In comparison an EV even at 35p/kwh is 8.75p/mile (assuming 4 miles/kwh) - 39% the cost of petrol, and even if base electric prices rise in October to 50p/kwh then is will be 12.5p/mile - 43% the cost of petrol then.

    A 10K miles annual usage, EV is £875, and petrol £2200 at current prices, at inflated rates £1250 for the EV and £2900 for petrol.

    I have not taken into account that you can get electricity for EV charging at home at off peak rates at around 7.5p/kwh, so even if re-charging at home for 66% at this rate and 34% at public chargers you would spend £123.75 (6600miles/4mile/kwh*£0.075/kwh) and £433.50 (3400miles/4mile/kwh*£0.51/kwh) = £557.25 in total for the year.

    I hope this gives some insight and helps you who are thinking about how to manage this.
    You have not taken I to account the October electricity price rise, or the cost of the EV battery replacement after 8 years?
    Kevin

    Too busy enjoying the music....

    European loan coordinator for Graham Slee HiFi system components..

  6. #5556
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 34,267
    I'm Martin.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by struth View Post
    . Wholesle prices have been droppig for ages yet pries go up daily.
    what's your source for that? Wholesale prices have been increasing I thought? Partly due to Ukraine partly due to the pound weakening against the dollar.

    According to this article https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...es-record-high it's the refineries not the retailers who are holding the price up.

    Welcome Break price isn't really indicative of anything, motorway fuel has always been a rip-off. No-one fills up on the motorway unless they have no option. It's a captive market. A burger costs 50% more there as well.
    Current Lash Up:

    *Audiolab 6000CDT* Soncoz SGD-1 * Nelson Pass DCB1 * Krell KSA50s * JM Lab Electra 926 *

  7. #5557
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 11,181
    I'm Adrian.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CageyH View Post
    You have not taken I to account the October electricity price rise, or the cost of the EV battery replacement after 8 years?
    Actually I have taken into account the electricity rise, "and even if base electric prices rise in October to 50p/kwh then is will be 12.5p/mile - 43% the cost of petrol then."

    As for EV battery replacement in 8 years, how many miles a year do you drive? It is well known that EV batteries are good for at least 250K plus, there are Tesla and other marques with over 300K on them and still going strong. If the batteries are charged to 80-90% of full capacity on superchargers they will do this, the newer LFP type batteries are good to be charge to 100% on a super charger regularly. So if you were doing 30-50K miles a year then maybe you would need to replace them, I think the average is around 16K miles so in the worst case they should be good for 15 years.
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs:
    Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm
    Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges
    Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:-
    Audiolab 8300CDQ CDP/DAC/pre-amp
    RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi
    Buffalo NAS Drive

    Amplification:-
    AudioValve Sunilda phono stage,
    Krell KSA-80 power amp

    Output:
    Wilson Benesch Vector speakers
    KLH Ultimate One Headphones

    Cables:
    Furutech AG-12-R4 High Performance Phono Cable
    QED Genesis Silver Spiral speaker leads, & links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

  8. #5558
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Moved to frozen north, beyond Inverness

    Posts: 2,275
    I'm Dave.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CageyH View Post
    You have not taken I to account the October electricity price rise, or the cost of the EV battery replacement after 8 years?
    There are some unknowns. We still have an electricity tariff with Octopus which is low - around 5p per kWh. Admittedly this may rise considerably, depending on what kind of deal we get later on. It looks as though the price differential is likely to be between £1000 and £1500 per year between petrol/diesel and EVs.

    There are going to be other considerations too, depending on whether customers will buy new cars, nearly new cars or older second hand cars, and how long they expect them to last. Trying to do a detailed evaluation taking into account present or future values is going to be a bit of a guessing game. There is going to be a bit of faith required - as always with cars, such as with a petrol car which has a failure. Is it worth getting the car repaired or passing it on or scrapping it? That kind of decision will be similar for EVs and petrol or diesel cars bought before legislation decides which kind of vehicle you are allowed to buy and drive.

    Regarding battery replacements/repair - that's a tricky one. Ideally you may want the battery to fail completely just before the guarantee period runs out - usually 8 years, so as to get a warranty replacemen. OTOH batteries don't usually just fail the day after the warranty runs out - it would not be unreasonable to expect at least 12 years - but there is no certainty. Many people do sell or otherwise dispose of their
    cars within a shorter time than 8 years. Depends on one's strategy, what the car is used for, and who is paying. Some of us may be too old to drive - if we still can - in 8 years time.

    For cars like the Teslas one strategy might be to keep them for a few years, then sell them while they still have a relatively high value, and replace them either with similar, or one by another manufacturer. It is likely that other manufacturers will start to make cheaper cars with similar performance, and perhaps also better build quality and better customer service. However, currently Tesla do have a bit of a monopoly of fast charging locations.
    Dave

  9. #5559
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Moved to frozen north, beyond Inverness

    Posts: 2,275
    I'm Dave.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AJSki2fly View Post
    Yesterday morning put in 13kwh into Tesla M3 all off the Solar took about 2h 50min, we have a realistic max PV capability of 7kwh.

    Our peak generation for one cloudless day is 63kwh, but at this time of year it’s usually around 40-45kwh.
    Apart from using a low powered charger, it is possible to restrict the charging current of a Tesla M3 - though maybe not everyone knows how to do that.
    However it may not be that easy to manage - and I'm not sure what the lowest current is - probably 2 amps - which would correspond to about 0.5 kW. That's really not so useful to know though.
    I guess if one could be sure of getting spare UV generation of at least 2 amps for say 6 hours, the one could inject about 3kWh of energy into a T M3 for next to no cost. However that is really not so much as to be useful. The electricity companies are not completely dumb - the price differential for electricity taken from the grid, and electricity supplied to the grid - or alternatively electricity diverted to something useful by the user - is such that on the whole the company wins - unless active steps are taken to optimise usage. That usually means having some form of active monitoring of the PV or wind generated power, and cutting off the device consumption the moment that consumption exceeds local generation supply.

    The other method which some are suggesting is to use local battery power, but in the UK for many people that may turn out to be expensive and pointless. However I gather that in parts of the world, such as parts of the USA, it is worth having battery backup power as grid power failures are sufficiently common and disruptive to make a fall back supply useful to have. AFAIK the Tesla battery packs only store about 13 kwH of electricity - so not as much as a car would store - and last time I looked were at least £6k to buy, plus a few extra £ks to install. Companies like Octopus are quite keen for customers to go this way, but fairly simple calculations suggest that if one views such installation purely financially, there isn't a great benefit for most people. However there might be benefits for people who have to have high reliability for vehicles - for example taxi drivers, who could at least get enough charge to get their vehicles to another charging station - unless there is/was a very wide area grid failure.
    Dave

  10. #5560
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: W Lothian

    Posts: 89,855
    I'm Grant.

    Default

    normal ev s can get a zip charge go battery for emergencies. fits in boot etc.. 8kwh and costs about a grand

    https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/3...arging-station
    Regards,
    Grant .... ؠ ......Don't be such a big girl's blouse

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: democracy simply-doesn't-work
    .... ..... ...... ...... ................... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
    OPPO BDP-103D - PANASONIC UB450 - PANASONIC 4K ULTRA HD - AVANTREE LR BLUETOOTH - NURAPHONE' BOSE, CAMBRIDGE & SONY HEADPHONES - 2*ZBOOK'- ROON - MULTI HDD'S -

    **I’ve studied deeply in the philosophies and religions, but cheerfulness kept breaking through**

    **Hate makes you impotent, Love makes you crazy. Somewhere in the middle you can survive.**

    “Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power. This is the supreme test. It is the glory of Lincoln that, having almost absolute power, he never abused it, except on the side of mercy.”

    “You see these dictators on their pedestals, surrounded by the bayonets of their soldiers and the truncheons of their police ... yet in their hearts there is unspoken fear. They are afraid of words and thoughts: words spoken abroad, thoughts stirring at home -- all the more powerful because forbidden -- terrify them. A little mouse of thought appears in the room, and even the mightiest potentates are thrown into panic.”

    Then I saw it. I saw a mum who would die for her son. A man who would kill for his wife. A boy, angry and alone. Laid out in front of him, the bad path. I saw it. And the path was a circle. Round and round. So I changed it.

    “There's a war out there, old friend. A world war. And it's not about who's got the most bullets. It's about who controls the information. What we see and hear, how we work, what we think... it's all about the information!”

    ***SMILE, BE HAPPY***

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