Mains cables, myths, magic, laws of physics and dambusters

[Oldpinkman]

The reality, guys, is that kettle leads are a piss-poor solution for powering a decent hi-fi system, and so your system deserves something much better!

Marco.

I have found that not to be true. Electrical theory suggests it would not be true. The qualified engineers on this site appear to agree it is not true. You are entitled to state what you believe to be true - but sadly those with limited budgets will wrongly conclude from that statement that they will get a benefit which is "much better" - when I find they will get no benefit at all. And when I and others make that point, you then claim the benefit you attribute is gossamer thin, and only audible after prolonged listening by trained listeners. I think they would be better spending their money on a better mat, cartridge, dac or amplifier stage.

We agree on one point though. Caveat emptor -and trust your ears, not the hyperbole of others

[Marco]

Like Marco, I am a reasonable person, and prepared to change my position when I encounter rational grounds for doing so (like directly experiencing something, or Pauls interconnect explanation), but until then I am happy with what I have concluded.

I appreciate that, Richard, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion. However, do me a favour, eh? When expressing your opinion on the matter please don't use language that denigrates the equally valid opinions and choices of others, such as this:

"Yes - I think my conclusion is that mains leads are another manifestation of the linn chip phenomena. A cult built around evident engineering which is perceived as an automatic deliverer of audiophile enhancements and spreads by peer pressure. Its ok as bling for those with systems which are topend and there is nothing left to spend the money on..."

It really grates on those of us who have chosen to use 'exotic' mains cables for reasons that bare no resemblance whatsoever to what you've described above. In future, just say something along the lines of: 'I don't think that ‘exotic’ mains cables work and are a waste of money', or some such, without the need to fix (what are in many cases) completely incorrect labels on other people's valid choices. We like to treat each other with respect on AoS, and at the moment, you're spoiling the vibe by making some of these unnecessary comments.

Deal?

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

Richard. In theory Marco's approach makes most sense but probably is against electrical regs, nullifies your house insurance and sounds rather dangerous to me. .

Paul.

I did wonder about that but a quick google for electrical regs produced nothing. I know old "sawdust ears" in France claims they do away with fuses because of individual circuit breakers per circuit (not so different to my mains distribution board here), and for sure all the frog appliances I buy have moulded fuse-free plugs, but a 13 amp circuit protector is no real help for something only designed to draw 500ma. Hopefully nothing will catch fire, and the point will be academic. I doubt he could legally let the place in that condition though.

[Audioman]

I have found that not to be true. Electrical theory suggests it would not be true. The qualified engineers on this site appear to agree it is not true. You are entitled to state what you believe to be true - but sadly those with limited budgets will wrongly conclude from that statement that they will get a benefit which is "much better" - when I find they will get no benefit at all. And when I and others make that point, you then claim the benefit you attribute is gossamer thin, and only audible after prolonged listening by trained listeners. I think they would be better spending their money on a better mat, cartridge, dac or amplifier stage.

We agree on one point though. Caveat emptor -and trust your ears, not the hyperbole of others

Not suggesting that a mains cable makes a bigger difference than any of the above. Improvement is more subtle and I suspect dependent on the current drawn by the device. Hence a bigger bottleneck with a powerful valve amp for instance. I did state I don't see that theory can explain differences listeners report. Obviously don't spend more on cables in total than the weakest component.

[Oldpinkman]

I appreciate that, Richard, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion. However, do me a favour, eh? When expressing your opinion on the matter please don't use language that denigrates the equally valid opinions and choices of others, such as this:



It really grates on those of us who have chosen to use 'exotic' mains cables for reasons that bare no resemblance whatsoever to what you've described above. In future, just say something along the lines of: 'I don't think that ‘exotic’ mains cables work and are a waste of money', or some such, without the need to fix (what are in many cases) completely incorrect labels on other people's valid choices. We like to treat each other with respect and be nice to each other on AoS, and at the moment, you're spoiling the vibe with some of the unnecessary comments you're making.

Deal?

Marco.

Marco, I take the point on language and have been attempting to avoid denigrating anyone. However, the comment was prefaced by "in my opinion" and I'm not quite sure which particular word or phrase is causing the offence. Linn chip is a term I first saw DSJR use, and we have explained, and I succumbed to. It is a handy short hand for that whole peer pressure, "its the norm" which applies in this situation in the HiFi world. Again - cult describes a collective belief in something which is exactly what the mains cable phenomena is. You and others believe in it - because of your experiences. I and others cannot share those experiences, and you and fellow believers feel it un-necessary or even demeaning to need to demonstrate them. Maybe the word has inappropriate religious overtones, so I am happy to use any more appropriate suggestion, but I am looking for a word that covers that collective belief in the absence of objective verifiable evidence.

I find statements like "The reality, guys, is that kettle leads are a piss-poor solution for powering a decent hi-fi system" which are authoratative, not prefaced by "in my opinion" and not supported by any objective evidence to be equally outside the spirit of what I had believed AOS was about. I find them especially disturbing from someone whose influence on the inexperienced is considerable on this forum.

But I apologise unreservedly for any offence given, and will be happy to endeavour to use language suggestions which are appropriate, AND cover the point I am making. I was trying for efficiency of language - you had accused me of being too verbose

[Marco]

I find statements like "The reality, guys, is that kettle leads are a piss-poor solution for powering a decent hi-fi system" which are authoratative, not prefaced by "in my opinion" and not supported by any objective evidence to be equally outside the spirit of what I had believed AOS was about. I find them especially disturbing from someone whose influence on the inexperienced is considerable on this forum.

Indeed, but that was done deliberately to give you a taste of your own medicine (in terms of what I accused you of earlier) and to see how you would react - and you reacted just as I thought you would!!!

As an example of the behaviour I'm talking about, how would you like it if, when I'm extolling the virtues of 'exotic' mains cables, I ended my comments with something like "...which strongly suggests that those who can't hear these benefits are deaf and/or blinkered, due to a potent mixture of intransigence and a distinct lack of hearing acuity"?

Would that not make you think: 'hey, hold on a minute, that's a bit cheeky and totally untrue!' Well, that's exactly how others and I feel about you using words, as an adjunct to your opinion, which strongly infer that we (users of 'fancy' mains cables) are victims of delusion.

In that respect, I'm referring to you going on about 'Linn chips' and 'cults', brainwashing, etc, neither of which I'm sure the many members here (including myself) who use 'audiophile-designed' mains leads possess, belong to or suffer from. You may not realise that you're doing this Richard, but it's how you're coming across, so please stop it.

But I apologise unreservedly for any offence given, and will be happy to endeavour to use language suggestions which are appropriate, AND cover the point I am making

Thank you! Now let's not have any further debate on the matter. However, please ensure that you take on board what I've said. Ta!

Marco.

[Beobloke]

Interesting that people keep banging on about "kettle leads" in this thread as it is unlikely that any piece of hi-fi equipment has ever been supplied with a kettle lead.

The leads supplied with general electronic and hi-fi equipment use IEC 60320 type C13 socket on the end of the lead and C14 plugs on the equipment, whereas a kettle lead uses a type C15 socket on the lead and a C16 plug on the kettle.

The C15/16 type are temperature rated to 120 degC whereas the C13/14 types are only rated at 70degC, hence why the former are used on kettles. Furthermore, the C15/16 types have a notch in their locating flange which means that, whilst a C15 lead will fit into a C14 connector, a C13 lead will not fit into a C16 connector thus making sure you can't use a 70 degC rated lead on a kettle. Therefore, what people are referring to as a "kettle lead" in hi-fi terms won't actually fit into a kettle!

Also, it's worth considering that a bog standard mains lead generally has 1mm square cores. These are rated at 10A at 250V and thus will allow 2500W of power down them without getting upset. Consequently, I struggle to see how they can be considered as being a "bottleneck" to a piece of hi-fi equipment that is rated at much less than that - even the beefy studio power amp I bought last week to have a play with is only rated at 700W!

As you were...

[Marco]

Indeed, Adam, but there's a lot more to the subject, IMO, than simply current draw. It's the issue of the noise/interference suppression offered, in my experience, with the best 'audiophile-designed' mains leads, which I consider to be more significant.

Thing is, neither 'side' is ever going to agree on this, and we are destined to argue until infinity, so TBH, I'm getting close to the point now of carrying out Barry's earlier request and locking the thread, in order to prevent further circular argument.

Marco.

P.S Thanks for the info on kettle leads. Most interesting, and noted!

[Oldpinkman]

Interesting that people keep banging on about "kettle leads" in this thread as it is unlikely that any piece of hi-fi equipment has ever been supplied with a kettle lead.

Good point! The bloody Integral needs a Kettle lead and a 13 amp fuse as I found when I thought I had blown up Arthur's precious toy (maybe only NEEDS more than 5 amp but it says 13 amp on the tin)

Also, it's worth considering that a bog standard mains lead generally has 1mm square cores. These are rated at 10A at 250V and thus will allow 2500W of power down them without getting upset. Consequently, I struggle to see how they can be considered as being a "bottleneck" to a piece of hi-fi equipment that is rated at much less than that - even the beefy studio power amp I bought last week to have a play with is only rated at 700W!

As you were...

Yes but you are using science and not imagination (faith, hope? help what word am I allowed to use for an idea unsupported by evidence but nonetheless stated as a positive hypothesis)- that's why you can't see. (Mark 8:18 )

Daftee!

[Marco]

Ok, chaps, it's all getting rather boring now, with the same points being regurgitated again and again, as is destined to eventually happen on these types of threads. As ever, though, thanks to all for their insight and contributions

Marco.